Officially Unofficial Metrolinx Regional Transportation Plan Thread

[Le Gique]

why can't we all just... agree on where the subways should go?

seems to me the metrolinx exercise may instigate some putting-or-shutting-up 'round the transit water-cooler...

who here wants X transit technology to be built where the projected ridership numbers are too low to justify the cost? hands up.

in general terms, you don't build LRT where BRT will do. you don't build subway where LRT is sufficient. nobody will say they want to waste money.

it's also irresponsible to under-build capacity too.

then can we shift the debate to how to credibly estimate potential ridership numbers...?

a credible estimate depends on projected work/live density along the corridor and projected volumes of feeder lines, etc.

that gets tricky -- and so much also depends on shifting political realities of zoning and funding

this doesn't even get into how long are the projections... two decades? three? the existing Spadina line is almost 30 years old -- is it close to capacity?

these numbers are too complicated for anyone to do in their heads -- although that doesn't stop us from extrapolating that a BRT or LRT or subway is best (and then smacking somebody else who is likewise projecting numbers from their gut feelings and coming up with a different mode...)

it's up to the gang involved in Metrolinx to compare choices of technology with trustworthy ridership figures, not the highly-debatable (but rarely quoted) numbers that "justified" some of the stuff already in the pipeline before MO 2020

if we get this data and mostly agree it's good, then the job is to estimate how much has changed since transit city came out -- how much more money will Metrolinx leverage?

how much more intestinal fortitude will politicians locate in order to see real density come to corridors proposed for expansion?

alas, it's loads more fun to fling our crystal balls around instead of searching for real numbers...

 

[doady]

seems to me the metrolinx exercise may instigate some putting-or-shutting-up 'round the transit water-cooler...

who here wants X transit technology to be built where the projected ridership numbers are too low to justify the cost? hands up.

in general terms, you don't build LRT where BRT will do. you don't build subway where LRT is sufficient. nobody will say they want to waste money.

it's also irresponsible to under-build capacity too.

then can we shift the debate to how to credibly estimate potential ridership numbers...?

a credible estimate depends on projected work/live density along the corridor and projected volumes of feeder lines, etc.

that gets tricky -- and so much also depends on shifting political realities of zoning and funding

this doesn't even get into how long are the projections... two decades? three? the existing Spadina line is almost 30 years old -- is it close to capacity?

I hope that is not the main goal of new transit lines...

Transit, whether it be streetcars, subway or mere buses, should not always be close to capacity...

 

[Chuck]

think most people would agree that if TWO subway lines go to Hwy 7, Mississauga should be getting getting at least one.

Why? The goal of Metrolinx should be to bring the right type of transit service to the right type of area - not whichever municipality seems the most left out.

Northern extensions are substantially shorter than a western extension, and in the case of Yonge follow extremely well defined travel patterns. Getting downtown from Mississauga by subway would take at least an hour, and would involve a transfer.

 

[doady]

Why? The goal of Metrolinx should be to bring the right type of transit service to the right type of area - not whichever municipality seems the most left out.

Northern extensions are substantially shorter than a western extension, and in the case of Yonge follow extremely well defined travel patterns. Getting downtown from Mississauga by subway would take at least an hour, and would involve a transfer.

If the point of the these subway extensions is simply to improve connections between downtown and York Region, then GO Train is a better option...

York Region is no more suited for a subway than Mississauga and you are delusion if you truly believe that.

 

[urbanfan89]

The only reason why the Yonge Line should be extended to Highway 7 is because Langstaff will become a major transit node (GO Rail, regional BRT, VIVA LRT in the future). If we build an LRT from Finch to Langstaff we will only create another unnecessary transfer.

There are no obvious transit nodes in Mississauga that can be reached from Kipling.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

If the point of the these subway extensions is simply to improve connections between downtown and York Region, then GO Train is a better option...

York Region is no more suited for a subway than Mississauga and you are delusion if you truly believe that.

Realistically neither Mississauga nor York Region really need a subway extension. What they do need is either subway line distinctly their's or to embrace the marvelous infrastructure that is BRT/LRT. What makes the 905 think that adding on 7 more stops to a 32-stop BD line is practical I don't know as it wouldn't be remotely faster a way to head into downtown than GO. Express lines that bypass the minor stops on existing lines would get people to their destinations faster.

I honestly don't think some people will ever be satisfied til the BD line pierces Winston Churchill and the Yonge Line reaches Newmarket .

The only reason why the Yonge Line should be extended to Highway 7 is because Langstaff will become a major transit node (GO Rail, regional BRT, VIVA LRT in the future). If we build an LRT from Finch to Langstaff we will only create another unnecessary transfer.

In that case, an express line is more practical than extending YUS. Just think 905ers would be able to reach downtown quicker than someone just boarding at Finch. For Torontonians it provides a fast alternative to YUS for CBD to City Hall, Bloor-Yorkville, Yonge-Eglinton or NYCC commuting. That's it, no miscellaneous stops.

 

[Chuck]

If the point of the these subway extensions is simply to improve connections between downtown and York Region, then GO Train is a better option...

York Region is no more suited for a subway than Mississauga and you are delusion if you truly believe that.

How is GO a better option? I estimate that a subway trip from Langstaff to Union would take 35-40 minutes. GO's schedule indicates that the trip time from Langstaff to Union by train is also 35 minutes. This is one of the very few cases where the subway is actually as fast, if not faster than the GO train. GO travels about 40 km/h for the entire trip south of Lawrence, at which point it has veered all the way east to Victoria Park.

It's also worth mentioning that while Langstaff may not be in Toronto, it's not exactly very far. Taking the subway to Langstaff would be a 6km shorter trip than going to the end of the SRT. In fact, Langstaff and Kennedy stations are approximately equidistant from Yonge and Bloor following the route of each subway line.

 

[RedRocket191]

How is GO a better option? I estimate that a subway trip from Langstaff to Union would take 35-40 minutes. GO's schedule indicates that the trip time from Langstaff to Union by train is also 35 minutes. This is one of the very few cases where the subway is actually as fast, if not faster than the GO train. GO travels about 40 km/h for the entire trip south of Lawrence, at which point it has veered all the way east to Victoria Park.

It's safe to assume that there will be upgrades to the line to improve speeds. If you're going to compare the subway to the GO train, it only makes sense to compare 2020 apples to 2020 apples.

 

[Chuck]

It's safe to assume that there will be upgrades to the line to improve speeds. If you're going to compare the subway to the GO train, it only makes sense to compare 2020 apples to 2020 apples.

Very true, except the Richmond Hill line of today will resemble the Richmond Hill line of 2020 in every possible way due to its routing through the environmentally protected Don Valley, which is also riddled with one sharp turn after another, and almost a dozen single track century old bridges over the Don River, some of which are 50-100 feet in height. Most of the line has no road access. Unless much of the routing is abandoned (impossible because there are no parallel tracks), you can forget about any upgrades except passing tracks north of Lawrence.

With Yonge express tracks - which in all honestly are about as likely as upgrades to the GO line - the subway could be 50% quicker than the GO train.

 

[Anth]

The only reason why the Yonge Line should be extended to Highway 7 is because Langstaff will become a major transit node (GO Rail, regional BRT, VIVA LRT in the future). If we build an LRT from Finch to Langstaff we will only create another unnecessary transfer.

There are no obvious transit nodes in Mississauga that can be reached from Kipling.

Uh... Square One?!

I find it very strange that York seems to have greater mindshare here when Peel has over 1.2 million people and is far denser. Is it just because of Yonge?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Uh... Square One?!

I find it very strange that York seems to have greater mindshare here when Peel has over 1.2 million people and is far denser. Is it just because of Yonge?

York is more connected to the 416, but, yeah, the Yonge line is being extended to York just because of Yonge.

As for Spadina, any extension would have gone to York U, but Vaughan and Sorbara et al lobbied for another 2km. Brampton and Durham are so far from existing lines they don't have much of a say, but when was the last time Hazel asked for a Bloor extension?

Food for thought: Square One would be 23km from downtown along a Bloor extension, the same distance as a Spadina extension to Wonderland or a Yonge extension to Major Mackenzie. A Danforth extension to Scarborough Town Centre would be 18km. Add 3km to all of these to get to-Union distances.

 

[urbanfan89]

The CP spur can be resurrected to drastically shorten the trip on GO between Langstaff and Union. Unfotunately it's currently a bike trail, but they should convert it back to rail in the name of faster commutes.

 

[marcus_a_j]

a Spadina extension to Wonderland

Hell, they might as well have done just that instead of stopping at HWY 7, I mean, it makes just as much sense. There would even be a stop at Vaughan Mills.

 

[RedRocket191]

The CP spur can be resurrected to drastically shorten the trip on GO between Langstaff and Union. Unfotunately it's currently a bike trail, but they should convert it back to rail in the name of faster commutes.

There was a report into using the connecting track between the CN Bala sub and the CP Belleville Subdivision. They felt that houses had been built too close to the right-of-way, but I suppose that could change with effective sound barriers.

My cousin's house backs onto the Bala subdivision in the Bayview & Royal Orchard area, and while I got used to the noise after one night, she seems ready to move after five years.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Hell, they might as well have done just that instead of stopping at HWY 7, I mean, it makes just as much sense. There would even be a stop at Vaughan Mills.

But do we really want to set a precedent for ever-meandering subways with no end in sight? When would we allow BRT to take over?

In all honesty the 905 suburbs would be better off building their own subways rather than piecemealing onto Toronto's. Anyone wanting a Square One subway should realize we're talking 42 subway stations on the BD line, over 41 kms and 90 mins sitting or worse standing in one position, end to end. Heck, even Kennedy to Islington's too long.

However if the 905 broke out on their own we'd have:
Pickering- Zoo to Brock via rail corridor/Kingston Rd
Vaughan-Markham- Hwy 27 to Markham Stoufville Hosp. via Hwy 7
Brampton- Chinguacousy to Goreway via Queen St
Mississauga- Port Credit to Shoppers World via Hurontario;
Airport to Erin Mills via Eglinton

Any of those sounds better than the 70th or 71st station of the YUS or BD line. Furthermore how little we forget how terribly slow the downtown streetcars are and how we'd better be served by a east-west subway line there. It can't be done if we choose to serve suburban sprawl and parking lots. Anyway my rant is mute though, we've already got GO so there's your subway. LRT and BRT all wrapped in a shiny evergreen package !