Officially Unofficial Metrolinx Regional Transportation Plan Thread

[RedRocket191]

The two areas of Mississauga which are, in my opinion, in most desperate need for transit service or would reap the most benefit if transit service was improved, is Mississauga City Centre and the Dundas/Bloor Corridor.

The Dundas West Rapid Transit Corridor can serve the second area I mentioned, and the best way to serve the City Centre is to build a faster way for people to travel in all directions. I believe this should come in some sort of east-west corridor (the busway or equivalent), and a north-south corridor (the Hurontario corridor. A faster way to get from Square One to the GO station is also needed, be it frequent shuttle buses or something else.

About Transit City:

It was conceived in an era where there was no money. That's why it was an LRT plan. Now there is money. Should it be upgraded to subways? In my opinion, ONLY if there are NO sacrifices. I would love to see something with a higher capacity under Eglinton, but I would NOT support an upgrade to traditional Toronto subway technology if it meant we had to cut Jane or Don Mills.

 

[doady]

About Transit City:

It was conceived in an era where there was no money. That's why it was an LRT plan. Now there is money. Should it be upgraded to subways? In my opinion, ONLY if there are NO sacrifices. I would love to see something with a higher capacity under Eglinton, but I would NOT support an upgrade to traditional Toronto subway technology if it meant we had to cut Jane or Don Mills.

If money was such an issue, then why doesn't the plan include any BRT, especially along the Finch Hydro Corridor? Why are the LRT lines so spread out, in every corner of the city, instead of priority given to corridors that need it and can benefit from LRT the most? Or perhaps priority should have given to solving the TTC's biggest problem, overcrowding of the subway system, which Transit City not only fails to address, but actually will make even worse. And of course, there is also the whole issue of the incomplete Sheppard and Danforth lines.

In times of low funding, the TTC needs to prioritize more than ever, and the TTC failed to do that.

 

[CDL.TO]

There is also a lot of room for growth in subway service as well, why ignore subway expansion? Improvements to the Milton line is not going to solve everything, likewise for the Yonge subway in York. If you fear an subway extensions will cause even more overcrowding, there is no reason, aside form lack of funding, not to build alternative subway lines or improve the regional rail service at the same time.

I think it is wrong to advocate for just one type of transit, which is why I don't like Transit City at all.

For sure. Essentially, the point you're making is "use the right tool for the job". We certainly need to expand the subway system and there's lost of places were LRT makes sense. The point I'm trying to make is that it doesn't make sense to keep extending the subway ad infinitum. We need to make use of a mode for the suburbs that is designed for the greater distances and higher speeds that are required.

I truly believe that most people don't really understand how big this urban region has gotten; the City of Toronto may have half the population but it only covers about 1/6th of the Toronto urban region. The bus-to-subway system that we have not is NOT going to continue to work when people have to take a 20km bus ride for 40 minutes just to reach a subway station where they might have an hour-long subway trip ahead of them! That is not going to get people out of their cars!

We need to ask ourselves what is the logical point where subways should end and higher-speed solutions should take over? Paris is hardly a great example, but their subways hardly leave the 87 km2 central city. Toronto by comparison is 630 km2. The subway line that travels furthest from the central city (by my measure), line 8, is 17 stops from Bastille. Square One would be at least 24 stops from Yonge-Bloor. I've looked at the maps of all the major European systems, and not a single one has a line that subjects a passenger to 24 stops to the city centre, and I challenge anyone to find me one.

In every city major I've been in in Europe, I've ridden both the subway and the regional rail (with the exception of Rome, where I only rode the subway). And I can say without a doubt, that in each and every one the regional rail provided a better experience. To most continental Europeans, subway is to regional rail what a bus is to a subway.

 

[RedRocket191]

If money was such an issue, then why doesn't the plan include any BRT, especially along the Finch Hydro Corridor? Why are the LRT lines so spread out, in every corner of the city, instead of priority given to corridors that need it and can benefit from LRT the most? Or perhaps priority should have given to solving the TTC's biggest problem, overcrowding of the subway system, which Transit City not only fails to address, but actually will make even worse. And of course, there is also the whole issue of the incomplete Sheppard and Danforth lines.

In times of low funding, the TTC needs to prioritize more than ever, and the TTC failed to do that.

Because no one lives in the hydro corridor and no one works in the hydro corridor. Generally, no one wants to go to the hydro corridor.

Transit city is designed to replace high-frequency bus routes with light rail. It was not designed to be faster, but it would be more reliable since they are out of traffic and it would increase the capacity of each vehicle. Building in the hydro corridor wouldn't solve the problems on the streets.

 

[CDL.TO]

And as I've said probably ten thousand times, an S-Bahn to Union would probably not help most of these people. Anyone who would use that are probably already taking GO.

They can change at Kipling if they need a destination on the current Bloor-Danforth line.

You're right, not everyone is heading downtown. They might be headed to Scarborough, or Markham, or North Etobicoke. All places that would be slow and uncomfortable to get to on nothing but local transit (don't forget, a subway is local transit), but could be quick and easy to get to on a properly developed regional-based system.

If this has to do with fares, it should be clear that it would be much wiser to spend the money to develop an integrated fare system rather than spending billions on a subway line because figuring out new tickets is simply too complicated.

 

[CDL.TO]

Because no one lives in the hydro corridor and no one works in the hydro corridor. Generally, no one wants to go to the hydro corridor.

Transit city is designed to replace high-frequency bus routes with light rail. It was not designed to be faster, but it would be more reliable since they are out of traffic and it would increase the capacity of each vehicle. Building in the hydro corridor wouldn't solve the problems on the streets.

Some people would be better served by a BRT in the hydro corridor... logically those who live north of Finch. No one lives IN the Finch Avenue street corridor either, they live all around it.

But yeah, your point is well-taken. But I'd point out the fact that Finch East now has service scheduled every 2 minutes or so, many of which run express and as such aren't serving those people on Finch either. Perhaps it's time to consider splitting the route in two, one local Finch Stn - Seneca, and one express via the Hydro Corridor (perhaps with stations at the cross streets) to Seneca and local after that.

 

[RedRocket191]

That's an idea worth looking at. We want to move people faster, and that'll help.

If it doesn't conflict with the sheppard "rapid transit corridor" another idea could be to extend the Finch West "rapid transit corridor" across finch east

 

[DENTROBATE54]

About Transit City:

It was conceived in an era where there was no money. That's why it was an LRT plan. Now there is money. Should it be upgraded to subways? In my opinion, ONLY if there are NO sacrifices. I would love to see something with a higher capacity under Eglinton, but I would NOT support an upgrade to traditional Toronto subway technology if it meant we had to cut Jane or Don Mills.

Lets not be too rash and assume that just because Transit City was proposed as a LRT network, it'll be that way indefinitely. Until the shovels bore the ground and tracks are laid there's always a possibly to modify which technologies are used. Preferably a mixture of BRT, LRT and SRT (subway rapid transit) would be suitable for TC, with Eglinton for it's sheer length and connectivity getting the subway. I'd give Don Mills some partial subway routing but not its full length. It's more important to diversify rather than pinch and scrape for every inch of every major corridor in the city and outlying suburbs to get a piece of the subway pie . I also find it assuming that none of these routes are being given trial BRT runs to ensure we won't have ridership duds on our hands in the long-run.

Some people would be better served by a BRT in the hydro corridor... logically those who live north of Finch. No one lives IN the Finch Ave corridor either, they live all around it.

This is a marginal number of people though, you've got to admit, especially if Finch West TC LRT routes so nearby.

 

[RedRocket191]

DENTROBATE:

How do you feel about light rail-sized cars that operate on the street, then dive underground at a certain point. Is this what you're talking about when you say "Subway Rapid Transit"?

 

[Disparishun]

We need to ask ourselves what is the logical point where subways should end and higher-speed solutions should take over? Paris is hardly a great example, but their subways hardly leave the 87 km2 central city. Toronto by comparison is 630 km2.

Where high-density development is separated from other high-density development by significant low density, as a pattern that replicates itself outwards, no? As opposed to, say, at arbitrary political boundaries which don't map onto local travel patterns.

In every city major I've been in in Europe, I've ridden both the subway and the regional rail (with the exception of Rome, where I only rode the subway). And I can say without a doubt, that in each and every one the regional rail provided a better experience. To most continental Europeans, subway is to regional rail what a bus is to a subway.

Isn't this just another example of how the real problem in Toronto's public transit infrastructure is not the stunted subway (though that's a problem too) but the barely-existent regional rail? I would think by now there'd be some consensus that until we have an RER-style system that runs reliably and frequently enough that it can be counted on, that is integrated with the subway system enough that you can transfer, and that is agnostic as to the origin and destination of long-haul travel along its routes -- within the GTA, outside the GTA -- we're not doing so well.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

About Transit City:

It was conceived in an era where there was no money. That's why it was an LRT plan. Now there is money.

Oh, please. That's hogwash. Poppycock. Nonsense. If there was "no money" for even a $1 billion subway extension to STC, how can there possibly be 6 to 9 times as much money for routes like Morningside and an extended SRT that will only serve a fraction of the number of people? Then, suddenly, MoveOntario is announced, giving the city a blank cheque. The LRT lines are routed based on politics, not ridership or city-building policies. This much is painfully obvious. I say painfully because these many billions of dollars will only result in marginal improvements in some areas of the city.

If it was a long-term plan, a dream map, if you will, why were all of the long-established subway plans - plans that were quite modest in the context of MoveOntario and a city as large as Toronto - suddenly altered? We have a new official plan yet most of Don Mills, Jane, Finch West, and Morningside aren't even designated or suitable for Avenue-ization. Why is there absolutely nothing for downtown, a gap that will cost billions more to fill? It's a plan for suburban streetcars, not for transit. Hopefully, someone will point out to those someones in charge that spending two billion dollars on streetcars and RTs to Malvern (but don't actually go to Malvern) might be *incredible* overkill when GO service to the same place is also scheduled to be markedly improved.

There. Now, I promise not to bash Transfer City for one whole month

 

[Dan416]

There. Now, I promise not to bash Transfer City for one whole month

Haha you won't be able to keep that promise, not by a long shot.

Transfer City is a joke. Personally I believe there should be some kind of a subway ring circling downtown. They had something like that in Vienna from what I remember.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Some people think GO is the only way to go, some want hundreds of kilometres of subways, some think every street should have a streetcar, etc. Apparently, building what is needed or appropriate rather than what is wanted or fetishized is totally unreasonable.

 

[RedRocket191]

I wouldn't have it any other way!

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Because no one lives in the hydro corridor and no one works in the hydro corridor. Generally, no one wants to go to the hydro corridor.

The hydro corridor is not useful for local service, but it could be used as part of a fantastic semi-regional service. Steeles and Finch buses combined have 122,000 riders a day, so it's not like it's a niche market.

There are actually a hell of a lot of people living and working very close to the hydro corridor. York U, North York Centre, and Seneca are the big three in the middle. Jane & Finch is just to the west, and if a bus or rail line is routed along Finch at this point, it could hit Rexdale, Humber, Woodbine, and the airport. Then maybe to the big office park on Eglinton, through the Eastgate wasteland, to Square One. East of Seneca, it could run directly to the middle of Malvern...stops at Bathurst or Warden or McCowan would all have well over 100,000 people only a few minutes away by bus. Something like 50 or 60 km, 15 or so stops. Similar sorts of lines have been on several people's fantasy maps.