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[UtakataNoAnnex]

...but the same goes for calling all these people Nazi's and terrorists. There may be individuals who fit those descriptions of course,

But that gets into that thorny area of "they might as well be" again. Not to mention it's been quite demonstrative that there are certainly bad actors from that camp who are using questionable acts to get their point across. Maybe not blowing things up (yet), but certainly terrorizing civilians starts to fall into what terrorism is. It's a case of the if the shoe fits, so we shouldn't be just dismissing that either, IMO.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

But that gets into that thorny area of "they might as well be" again. Not to mention it's been quite demonstrative that there are certainly bad actors from that camp who are using questionable acts to get their point across. Maybe not blowing things up (yet), but certainly terrorizing civilians starts to fall into what terrorism is. It's a case of the if the shoe fits, so we shouldn't be just dismissing that either, IMO.

It's not just the questionable acts - those are distractions; it is the level of organization, the parties involved and the tactics being utilized (to say nothing of an unknown level of outside influence).

AoD

 

[Bjays92]

I agree with almost everything you said. I think the values of most Canadians are that of peace. We should do everything in our power to avoid military intervention, or violent response. And yes, not all people there are hardcore Nazis, or violent. But with any extremist movement embedded in the middle of others of a less violent position, there will be mob mentality that goes on.

Aside from their separatist and white supremacist aspects, leaders of this occupation routinely talk of Nuremberg 2.0. In case you haven't guessed, that means Trudeau and other politicians (and some include mainstream media) need to be tried and executed for crimes against humanity. There've been plenty of images of nooses, "Hang Trudeau", "Nuremberg 2.0", signs, etc. There are a good number of people in amongst the group calling for blood. And when the crap hits the fan, people will take sides. Do you think those same previously less violent people are going to suddenly turn against those they've been singing, dancing and eating with the last week, when they already believe the system is broken, or feel disenfranchised?

This may need to go the military route, and it's precisely because of the violent, bigoted people leading the charge.

Absolutely agree with this, and the rhetoric is not ok. They're also clearly delusional that they think they can somehow form a government with the opposition parties, and we can call out that ill intention and delusion and even prosecute it criminally.

Maybe I'm too much of a stickler when it comes to terminology, but I dont think advocating violence equates to violence, and its important to distinguish between the two even if they're both criminal. Likewise, there's a difference between aspiring to overthrow the government and actually leading an insurrection. When these people storm our government building I won't mince words, but equating these people to the Jan 6 crowd for example, is disingenuous at this point in time, even if they share many similarities.

That's how I see it at least.

 

[lenaitch]

That means the army as a last resort. Towers who refuse could be last to be called upon for future collision situations.

If the military equipment is located where I think it is, they'd better start driving now - but they can't until the province makes the request to the feds; although I suppose they could 'pre-position' on their own volition.

Outside of the new GTA 400-series provincial restricted tow zone program, the majority of heavy towing is at the request, or at least with the approval, of the driver/company/insurance company. Some, but not all, municipal police services, include heavy tow in their contracts.

Even if they started towing today, they can only remove vehicles up the middle of the bridge (international border).

I'm with northern light here, I deplore this convoy, and everything it represents, but I'm so tired of people throwing around buzzwords carelessly as if they mean nothing. Not only does that dilute the meaning of terms with serious weight and meaning behind them, it is also undermines the legitimacy and struggle of people who have actually suffered through some of these very real events. I'm sure we all agree that comparing mask mandates at schools to child abuse is appalling, and completely diminishes the experience of children who have been abused, but the same goes for calling all these people Nazi's and terrorists. There may be individuals who fit those descriptions of course, but throwing those terms around so carelessly (I've particularly seen terrorist and violent insurrection used excessively on social media) it's not reflective of reality and diminishes the significance of those terms.

With the growing number of border blockades, I think economic terrorism is starting to become a more relevant term, but it's like people fail to see that movements can cause havoc while still being basically nonviolent, which is in fact the case here. This is NOTHING LIKE a violent revolution.

Additionally, I can't believe how many people here are advocating the use of military on civilians, the military should never be used on civilian protests, EVER. Having come from a legitimately authoritarian country (China) that rhetoric makes me incredibly uncomfortable. Maybe it feels ok that the military comes in and start shooting when most of us disagree with the movement, but what happens next time when the reason for protest is largely viewed as legitimate and they send the military in for that too. How does that make us any better than authoritarian regimes?

Even Doug Ford's new emergency powers that he's going to subsequently table to become official legislation. Up to $100,000 fines, 1 year imprisonment and revocation of your licenses for blocking highways and bridges. That can so easily be weaponized in the future. Why do we need additional legislation to deal with things that are already illegal?

For the border blockades in particular, just start arresting and towing people. There's hundreds of individuals at best, if our police forces somehow cant handle that then we have bigger problems. The military should not be needed.

To a certain extent, you are correct; many of the incidents are covered by either criminal or provincial law, but I'm not aware that any of the existing laws have the hammer of licence suspension and not all might include the authority to tow/impound. Also, procedurally, criminal law is more cumbersome. Without seeing the order, there was talk about also including a provision to suspend/revoke a driver's Commercial Vehicle Operator's Registration (CVOR). Also, it is unclear at this point whether the new offences are actually amendments to the HTA or orders under the Emergency Management and Civil Protection Act. The latter seems more likely and, if so, like any other order, is time limited (and may be geographically limited) as per the Act.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Absolutely agree with this, and the rhetoric is not ok. They're also clearly delusional that they think they can somehow form a government with the opposition parties, and we can call out that ill intention and delusion and even prosecute it criminally.

Maybe I'm too much of a stickler when it comes to terminology, but I dont think advocating violence equates to violence, and its important to distinguish between the two even if they're both criminal. Likewise, there's a difference between aspiring to overthrow the government and actually leading an insurrection. When these people storm our government building I won't mince words, but equating these people to the Jan 6 crowd for example, is disingenuous at this point in time, even if they share many similarities.

That's how I see it at least.

I think it is rather dangerous not to take violent and treasonist (and I don't mean asking GG to "fire" the current government and invite the opposition to create a new one) calls at their face value - especially in a crowd setting. You do not want to wait till a repeat of Jan 6 to act (in fact, that's literally the failure of Jan 6 - and condemnation after the fact is meaningless).

AoD

 

[W. K. Lis]

Aren't the protesters closing the very border crossings that they want opened? The difference is that they are preventing almost EVERYONE in trucks from crossing.

 

[Bjays92]

Aren't the protesters closing the very border crossings that they want opened? The difference is that they are preventing almost EVERYONE in trucks from crossing.

Yes and hurting huge swaths of Canadian businesses, potentially doing more long term damage to Canada's economic prospects than the whole pandemic. It's very ironic.

I have a friend who went the US for a funeral and probably won't be able to get back into the country now.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Injunction against bridge protesters granted - from CP24:

Injunction granted to prevent protesters from blocking Ambassador Bridge

Protesters blocking one of Canada's busiest border crossings were dealt a one-two punch Friday, as a court granted an injunction banning their blockade and Ontario's premier declared a state of emergency that would subject them to major fines.

www.cp24.com

AoD

 

[Bjays92]

Injunction against bridge protesters granted - from CP24:

Injunction granted to prevent protesters from blocking Ambassador Bridge

Protesters blocking one of Canada's busiest border crossings were dealt a one-two punch Friday, as a court granted an injunction banning their blockade and Ontario's premier declared a state of emergency that would subject them to major fines.

www.cp24.com

AoD

What good does an injunction do when it's already illegal? Police still need to enforce it.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

It feels like the elephant in bed with us is starting to lean heavily on us to get this thing open again...

What good does an injunction do when it's already illegal? Police still need to enforce it.

...I gotta feeling that things might come to ahead this time around.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Yes and hurting huge swaths of Canadian businesses, potentially doing more long term damage to Canada's economic prospects than the whole pandemic. It's very ironic.

I have a friend who went the US for a funeral and probably won't be able to get back into the country now.

After the 2020 indigenous blockades, and now this, I'd be looking into repatriating industry if I were an American business.

 

[W. K. Lis]

What good does an injunction do when it's already illegal? Police still need to enforce it.

It was city by-laws they were breaking. Now the province and feds are involved, along with the needed enforcement personnel.

 

[lenaitch]

I think it is rather dangerous not to take violent and treasonist (and I don't mean asking GG to "fire" the current government and invite the opposition to create a new one) calls at their face value - especially in a crowd setting. You do not want to wait till a repeat of Jan 6 to act (in fact, that's literally the failure of Jan 6 - and condemnation after the fact is meaningless).

AoD

I suppose one thing in the favour of the gang in Ottawa, and I say this while holding back a bit of bile, is there does not seem to have been any pressure or attention on any of the buildings in the Parliamentary Precinct that I have heard of; they seem to be content to camp out on Wellington and environs and make mischief. Not to say it couldn't happen.

What good does an injunction do when it's already illegal? Police still need to enforce it.

I think Chris Lewis covered it fairly well in the CP24 panel; that the existing laws are a bit of mish-mash. The police might be able to charge somebody with criminal 'mischief to property' but that does not, in an of itself, give them the authority to tow and seize the truck.

One thing that many are overlooking is that this might be an important border crossing in Canada, it is a privately-owned entity. It likely wouldn't impact criminal charges but it might limit the application of city bylaws or even some existing provincial legislation. I don't really know the extent of the impact, if any.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I suppose one thing in the favour of the gang in Ottawa, and I say this while holding back a bit of bile, is there does not seem to have been any pressure or attention on any of the buildings in the Parliamentary Precinct that I have heard of; they seem to be content to camp out on Wellington and environs and make mischief. Not to say it couldn't happen.

It helps that Parliament is still hybrid, and WFH is still the thing for civil servants.

AoD

 

[Admiral Beez]

These protestors seem like fools to me, late to the game. We’re probably 30-45 days away from the end of two years of mandates and NOW you protest? Just wait another month, jeez….