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Novel Coronavirus COVID-19 (nCoV-2019)

TrickyRicky said:
The Covid response in Ontario is really upsetting me in a way few other issues have before. I never thought we were that incompetent as a society. The initial curve flattening was encouraging but since then we have become one of the worst jurisdictions in the developed world. If Canadians ever had illusion’s as to having the best health care system in the world, we’ll wake up call, we have one of the worst based on our relative spending.

Ontario is now recording more new cases than entire countries that were hot spots earlier on in the pandemic with no end in sight. We don’t have to worry about a second wave because at this rate our first wave will never end
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First off, lets dial back the hyperbole.

Ontario's % case growth has been under 2% steadily for the last 2+ weeks; the R-factor is ~ 1 and we have fewer people in hospital and icu with each passing week; and death toll has been declining likewise.

Yes, things could have been handled much better.

But the overwhelming disaster was the LTC system.

That vast majority of which is privately run; and the majority of whose budget does not show in our healthcare system as most residents must pay for their long-term care. (there are subsides for those whose income is insufficient to cover the cost; and palliative care is typically covered).

The disaster there is both the public and private systems, but the vast majority in the for-profit, private system.

Which, could have been mitigated (not eliminated) by earlier government action on staffing, ppe, testing and isolation protocols.

I'm not about to defend a government response I have found to be misguided, slow and ineffectual; but I also think its appropriate to apportion the blame to the appropriate actors, private and public.

Lets be frank though; outside of LTC, what made this worse was simply bad advice.

Where BC's Bonnie Henry rightly told people to go outside; enjoy the parks, but keep distant; her province performed well.

Not because being in parks itself immunizes anyone, but because rates of indoor transmission are vastly higher.

Here in Toronto we told people to stay home, which outside of LTC is the largest source of transmission, followed by workplaces and crowded transit.

For that bit of bumbling, some Medical Officers of Health should be seeking new employment.

Aside from being wrong advice, it also expended important capital; the more cooped up people were, the less long they were going to tolerate restrictions.

Apart from that, we also completely blew getting testing and contact tracing to where they needed to be. In my mind we're still a bit short on that file, though we've come a long way.

But again, not about doctor/hospital system.

Its about under-prepared public health officials, and systems.

For the record, public heath updates its statistics every day with ......wait for it..........faxes from the local public health units.

That's right, no secure, real-time data.

That's worth bitching about!
 
there are a lot of cases but most of the cases are less vulnerable people, getting less of a viral load and not needing care in hospitals.
 
W. K. Lis said:
New facilities or remodelling of LTC should have air conditioning along the lines of hospital operating rooms. Circulate fresh air in and out from outdoors, using HEPA filters and UV lights, to kill 99.9% of most viruses, bacteria, yeasts, and mold spores.
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Not to sound hard-hearted (I'll probably end up in one in not too many years) but I think that would be so astonishingly expensive that it would render LTC facilities unaffordable (or drive to health sector budget off the dial - it's currently ~40% of all provincial expenditures). The only thing I could find as a reference was in a Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety document which said a typical operating room ventilation was 22080 cfm - 20 air changes/hr. (their room dimensions struck me as large, but whatever) and an energy audit document regarding the Kingston GH which pegged the energy costs alone (for 25000 cfm) at $125,000/year. For one room. A more achievable goal would be requiring institutional ventilation standards - that used by hospitals for general spaces.
 
lenaitch said:
Not to sound hard-hearted (I'll probably end up in one in not too many years) but I think that would be so astonishingly expensive that it would render LTC facilities unaffordable (or drive to health sector budget off the dial - it's currently ~40% of all provincial expenditures). The only thing I could find as a reference was in a Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety document which said a typical operating room ventilation was 22080 cfm - 20 air changes/hr. (their room dimensions struck me as large, but whatever) and an energy audit document regarding the Kingston GH which pegged the energy costs alone (for 25000 cfm) at $125,000/year. For one room. A more achievable goal would be requiring institutional ventilation standards - that used by hospitals for general spaces.
Click to expand...

If you 20 air changes/hr is typical for an operating room...

Air Change Rates in typical Rooms and Buildings

From link.

1591148593045.png

1591148608209.png


Then there is the "quality" or "cleanliness" of the air being exchanged. Most homes don't exchange the interior air with the outside air, usually just recirculating the same air, hence the use of HELPA filters and UV lighting in the ducts to help.
 
I'm going ahead and blaming the plateau entirely on the 700 cases that were lost because of the miscommunication between whatever the hell west-end hospital and Mt Sinai.

That is entirely the cause of the ongoing nonsense in Ontario. Well done, everyone.

One really stupid error and all is for naught.

Too much to protest. Police brutality. Rape of Hong Kong. Covid-19 Hospital Fail. Trudeau's hair.

I can't do it.
 
W. K. Lis said:
If you 20 air changes/hr is typical for an operating room...

Air Change Rates in typical Rooms and Buildings

From link.

View attachment 249240
View attachment 249241

Then there is the "quality" or "cleanliness" of the air being exchanged. Most homes don't exchange the interior air with the outside air, usually just recirculating the same air, hence the use of HELPA filters and UV lighting in the ducts to help.
Click to expand...


Not my figures.

Appendix D specifically:


Cost reference used, page 2:


You are correct that there are filtration issued layered onto the air movement. No doubt there is a lot more filtration happening in an OR than a 'cocktail lounge' or 'boiler room' which are listed with similar exchange rates.

For homes, the Ontario Building Code has required Heat Recovery Ventilators (inside-outside air exchange) since 2017 but they have been common for several years, particularly since envelope sealing became prevalent - generally starting with the R2000 standard in the mid-1980s. Our house was built in 1995 and has one,
 
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There will be a lot of jumps in cases due to protests as corona confirmed people ended being at protests in isa already.

The ironic part is the thousands of people gathered for a police death in toronto believing a Fantastical story that the Toronto police picked up and threw a black lady off a balcony just for LOLs.
 
Jasmine18 said:
There will be a lot of jumps in cases due to protests as corona confirmed people ended being at protests in isa already.

The ironic part is the thousands of people gathered for a police death in toronto believing a Fantastical story that the Toronto police picked up and threw a black lady off a balcony just for LOLs.
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I'm not sure that that meets the definition of irony.............but I digress.....

I think your assertion about what those protesters believe is also wrong.

First, I think there are likely a wide range of views among them.

But I think the prevailing view is simply that a woman known to have mental health issues; also black, died during an interaction with police.

That that is at minimum a tragedy; even if the police did nothing wrong.

However, in the context both of Toronto Police having engaged in excessive force, and having killed more than a few people over the years, a disproportionate number of them black; in some cases very controversially; and in the context of the current
U.S. situation; there is understandable suspicion as to whether police did do something wrong.

They needn't have thrown anyone from a balcony for them to have mishandled the situation.

We don't know if they did or did not; though I think the case is well made that in calls where someone clearly has a mental health issue, a mental health worker/nurse should be involved in the response if at all possible.

That was not the case here.

We don't yet know the full facts.

People want to hear those facts and see the evidence for themselves, ASAP.

What 'justice' is, will be known thereafter.

The protest comes out of disappointment and mistrust, entirely understandable in the circumstances.

Doubtless some believe initial stories that seem unlikely to be true; but many more recognize those stories don't need to be accurate for this to be an unnecessary tragedy that could have been handled better.
 
Northern Light said:
I'm not sure that that meets the definition of irony.............but I digress.....

I think your assertion about what those protesters believe is also wrong.

First, I think there are likely a wide range of views among them.

But I think the prevailing view is simply that a woman known to have mental health issues; also black, died during an interaction with police.

That that is at minimum a tragedy; even if the police did nothing wrong.

However, in the context both of Toronto Police having engaged in excessive force, and having killed more than a few people over the years, a disproportionate number of them black; in some cases very controversially; and in the context of the current
U.S. situation; there is understandable suspicion as to whether police did do something wrong.

They needn't have thrown anyone from a balcony for them to have mishandled the situation.

We don't know if they did or did not; though I think the case is well made that in calls where someone clearly has a mental health issue, a mental health worker/nurse should be involved in the response if at all possible.

That was not the case here.

We don't yet know the full facts.

People want to hear those facts and see the evidence for themselves, ASAP.

What 'justice' is, will be known thereafter.

The protest comes out of disappointment and mistrust, entirely understandable in the circumstances.

Doubtless some believe initial stories that seem unlikely to be true; but many more recognize those stories don't need to be accurate for this to be an unnecessary tragedy that could have been handled better.
Click to expand...

Well sadly a lot of people I know and on social media believe she been pushed as it tied in the focus on police issues due to George's death in Minneapolis. It was a rather fantastical story that burned red hot and we know many times such stories can be redacted and changed but many people dont hear about that.

I think my point is we have to be careful that we dont move away from the level headed conversation to an Americanized 'blue lives matter" to "police are always wrong".

I dont think any of us want that here.
 
I think many are quick to jump at Doug for poor leadership in handling the end-game of this crisis, but isn't he essentially just listening to the recommendations of the top medical officials in the province?
 
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