MoveOntario 2020

[DENTROBATE54]

The intent was always to build the subway adjacent to the GO corridor. If built directly underneath the 407/7, northern exits face the VIVA/YRT terminal with the southern ones fully integrated with GO and the condo developments. Of course alotting subway access south of the highway system further proves my point that Helen's a pointless station and can easy well be sacrificed for Centre-John.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I think that too much has been invested / is being invested in the Langstaff gateway to avoid a connection. Build a walkway if you want, just don't pretend like it isn't there.

Ah, that absurdly overbuilt bridge. That's what happens when money is spent wrong...it just encourages more money to be thrown in the wrong places. Isn't Metrolinx supposed to change that pattern? That GO connection might be used by tens of people every day.

 

[RedRocket191]

Ah, that absurdly overbuilt bridge. That's what happens when money is spent wrong...it just encourages more money to be thrown in the wrong places. Isn't Metrolinx supposed to change that pattern? That GO connection might be used by tens of people every day.

Right or wrong, it's there.

Besides, the GO line presents a great opportunity to take pressure off the Yonge subway.

It may not be the number one priority, but it will be expanded.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Besides, the GO line presents a great opportunity to take pressure off the Yonge subway.

And it'll take pressure off Yonge by taking people downtown...meaning they won't need to transfer from the Yonge line to GO. But, again, this only matters if the Yonge line will ever be extended north to 16th, or possibly Major Mack. If it'll terminate at Langstaff forever, it can veer over.

 

[toraerach]

I'm a little disappointed that there are no plans to connect Peterborough to the GTA. And if you don't think we need a reliable public transit connection, try catching the greyhound to Toronto - lines are ridiculous. Considering the amount of people from Peterborough who work in Oshawa it would make sense to at least extend bus service, maybe even a rail line.

I guess I'm just a little pissed because I had to stand outside in the snow for three hours waiting for a delayed greyhound (although I should be used to it by now).

Besides that, I'm fairly pleased with MoveOntario. And now with the 6 month time limit on EAs, it should progress much faster.

I would've liked to have seen an investment in smaller scale transit projects, especially outside of the GTA where public transit is almost non-existent. Southern Ontario in general needs a comprehensive public transit plan that can eliminate the car as much as possible. Think outside of the 416/905 bubble.

 

[RedRocket191]

There have always been long term plans to serve Peterborough, Niagara and Waterloo, and i can tell you that is an issue which has been raised in the halls of power. GO has expanded train service to Barrie in recent months, the regional council of Waterloo has been pushing for expansion for ages, and GO is set to introduce bus service to Stoney Creek, likely the jumping off point to wine country.

I can't give you a time-frame, but it's coming.

And welcome to UT!

And by the by, the long term plan is to run trains to Peterborough via the Havelock subdivision. Based on the fact that alot of people from that town work in Ottawa, could there be a business case for building a new rail line to parallel highway 115/35?

 

[ShonTron]

Peterborough to Ottawa is a really long commute. Did you mean Oshawa?

There used to be a Port Hope-Peterborough line, and most of it is still feasibly rebuildable. Perhaps that would be the ideal alignment while allowing for Oshawa connections? (Getting crazy, I know.)

 

[DENTROBATE54]

I stand by my statement
Besides, it was 4:15 when I posted that. Can you blame me?

I guess that explains: "by the by"

But just to shift things back a bit, do you guys think it's more important to have immediate density surrounding a subway station or to build subways that have greater significance to feeder bus routes that ferry in several times the number of commuters that walk-ins alone could possibly provide? The former option would seem more logical because there's no guarantee building a swath of condos around a subway station will generate high commuter yeild.

If the ill-fated Sheppard 'stubway' has taught us anything it's that if someone's wealthy enough to afford 1200+ sq. ft. condo with a parking space, they're more than capable of commuting via private vehicle to downtown.

All I'm saying is that we should air on the side of caution, building subway stops with limited accessibility *cough* Helen *cough* when a long-yielding arterial road gets overlooked (Centre runs continuous to Hwy, and John to 14th, hence competitive east-west alternative to Langstaff/7 and Steeles).

 

[dowlingm]

How about a Zipcar lot at Peterborough Station with sturdy cottage country vehicles?

 

[St. Even]

I guess that explains: "by the by"

But just to shift things back a bit, do you guys think it's more important to have immediate density surrounding a subway station or to build subways that have greater significance to feeder bus routes that ferry in several times the number of commuters that walk-ins alone could possibly provide? The former option would seem more logical because there's no guarantee building a swath of condos around a subway station will generate high commuter yeild.

It makes most sense, imo, to try and build as much mixed-use density as close to the stations as possible. The feeder bus routes can be rerouted anywhere, including to a station where there is significant walk-in traffic, so why create and pay for maintaining another station just to catch a bunch of buses coming from different directions, when you can easily and with much less cost direct them to the nearest station?

And density doesn't always have to mean towers. We can get significant density with rows of six- to 10-storey buildings within 500m of stations (ah, the avenues...) And if we mix up the use, we can get a steadier all-day flow of traffic.

 

[St. Even]

The railway line between Havelock and the Toronto Yard is called the Havelock subdivision. All the proposals have been between North Toronto and Peterborough.

That's the same line that's supposed to serve the Pickering Airport, too, right? Hm, I wonder which will get built first...

 

[ShonTron]

Here we go!

The VIA train, in 1981, made the following stops:

Havelock
Norwood (F)
Indian River (F)
Peterboro
Cavan (F)
Draneol (F)
Manvers (F)
Pontypool (F)
Burketon (F)
Myrtle (F)
Dagmar (F)
Claremont (F)
Locust Hill (F)
Agincourt
Leaside
Toronto (Union)

The Peterborough-Toronto trip was about 2 hours, the schedule set up for commuting.

Today, I would only have stops in Peterborough downtown, perhaps a park+ride in the west end, Pontypool, Myrtle, possibly Clairmont, Locust Hill for sure, Agincourt and maybe Leaside.

Other tidbits:
Toronto-Stratford enjoyed 5 round trips Monday-Saturday, 4 on Sunday. Toronto-Kitchener took 1 hour, 37 minutes. Toronto-London, 2 hours, 50 minutes. Times are somewhat longer now, but not by that much.

Toronto-Brantford-London had 8 weekday departures, travel time 2 hours, 5 minutes on the Tempo expresses (stopping only at Oakville or not at all), 2 hours 15 minutes on the locals. Travel times now are slightly faster, at 2 hours average, even making more stops, but only six trains a day.

Toronto-Kitchener and Toronto-Brantford-London are obvious as well for regional services in conjection with VIA.

 

[MisterF]

I had no idea the old Peterborough VIA line had so many stations. A lot of those could definitely be eliminated.

And by the by, the long term plan is to run trains to Peterborough via the Havelock subdivision. Based on the fact that alot of people from that town work in Ottawa, could there be a business case for building a new rail line to parallel highway 115/35?

Peterborough to Ottawa is a really long commute. Did you mean Oshawa?

There used to be a Port Hope-Peterborough line, and most of it is still feasibly rebuildable. Perhaps that would be the ideal alignment while allowing for Oshawa connections? (Getting crazy, I know.)

IMO, the best alignment would be along the 407 east connector, which will connect the 401 and 407 at Courtice (the recommended route is here). The existing CP line already parallels most of the 115, so the only new track would be about 20 km in Durham, 10 km along the new highway and 10 km on a new right of way from there to the CP line. The Peterborough-Oshawa traffic would be significant - GM is one of the leading employers for Peterborough residents and the GM plant is close to the Oshawa GO station. There could easily be a shuttle connecting the two.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Heritage buildings, yes, but mansion owners control most of the land near the station...a few low-rise buildings might be built on Yonge, but a Centre station probably won't see more than 1000 walk-in riders a day (this excludes bus riders, but bus riders can be diverted anywhere, such as 1km south to Clark).

The original poster was right - Vaughan and Markham did a joint study that established max densities for the heritage district. Even with bonussing a top building height would be 5 stories and, on the Markham side, there is a 12-metre height limit. There WILL be some condos and other development in that area if a subway goes in, but nothing huge.

I expect the main justification for Clark would be the pre-existing condos and the YRT, Brampton and other busses that cut through (whereas no busses go on Helen Ave., for example).

This principle should apply everywhere.

The traffic in the GTA is a nightmare because we've waited until after development has occurred before expanding the infrastructure. We can't let that happen anymore.

Yes! That's what people who bash the "Sorbara Line" fail to understand.
Everyone thinks you build highrises and then find a way to get a subway there because that's all they've known.
"There's nothing up there in Vaughan!" they cry.
"It's a line to nowhere!"

Wait and see.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The original poster was right - Vaughan and Markham did a joint study that established max densities for the heritage district. Even with bonussing a top building height would be 5 stories and, on the Markham side, there is a 12-metre height limit. There WILL be some condos and other development in that area if a subway goes in, but nothing huge.

Yes, I know there will be a few low-rise buildings...you quoted the line where I mentioned them. I'm fully aware of the heritage issues, which is why I said development was constrained by them and the mansions. Since the heritage zone will remain quaint and low-rise, it is extremely unlikely that the mansions that lie beyond them will be redeveloped...not that Thornhill should be redeveloped, mind you.