MoveOntario 2020

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

More info in this thread but Markham has released its draft plan for the Yonge/Steeles corridor ...

http://www.urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?p=141502#post141502

As I mentioned on that thread, if you go down to P10/11 of the report you can see their guesses for subway stops: At Steeles and Clark. It doesn't mean anything concrete but it's the first semi-official guess and/or statement I've seen...

http://tinyurl.com/ypx5jr

 

[Dan416]

More info in this thread but Markham has released its draft plan for the Yonge/Steeles corridor ...

http://www.urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?p=141502#post141502

As I mentioned on that thread, if you go down to P10/11 of the report you can see their guesses for subway stops: At Steeles and Clark. It doesn't mean anything concrete but it's the first semi-official guess and/or statement I've seen...

http://tinyurl.com/ypx5jr

Seems like a decent plan to me. I love how it mentions that there's no regional funding for it lol.

Intensifying Yonge Street is a good thing, especially if they'll be getting a subway.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

There's been a lot of fantasizing here about where subway stops might be on the Yonge extension.
York region has outlined the possible stops here:

http://tinyurl.com/2be5kj

I'm banking on option 4, mostly because I think Clark and Centre are too close together to justify 2 stops. Helen is a bit north of the Royal Orchard site people here expected but seems to make sense...

The whole report on planning to date is here:
http://www.york.ca/Regional+Government/Agendas+Minutes+and+Reports/_2008/TC+rpt+1.htm

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I agree, Option 4 is both a good choice and a probable outcome.

There's nothing at Centre other than a tiny retail strip and a few hundred mansions, and Centre/John buses can funnel into Clark station, picking up would-be Centre stationites along the way. Cummer should only be added if it sees massive development, dozens of buildings. I'd like to see where each station might be positioned, like if Steeles is north, south, or right at Steeles.

I hope they don't call it "Helen" station when street names like Thornhill and Royal Orchard are right there, too.

Option 1 is the requisite "do nothing" option, hehe.

 

[Disparishun]

I agree, Option 4 is both a good choice and a probable outcome.

There's nothing at Centre other than a tiny retail strip and a few hundred mansions, and Centre/John buses can funnel into Clark station, picking up would-be Centre stationites along the way.

And isn't development around Centre constrained by heritage plans anyway?

Cummer should only be added if it sees massive development, dozens of buildings.

Ironically, the car dealers will decide this one, or at least influence it mightily -- they seem to own most of the land around there (and from there all the way up to the train tracks between Steeles and Clark).

I'd like to see where each station might be positioned, like if Steeles is north, south, or right at Steeles.

This will have a lot to do with what happens with Centrepoint, I guess, but I'd hope that they'd put it close enough to Steeles that there would be staircases on both sides of the street!

 

[scarberiankhatru]

And isn't development around Centre constrained by heritage plans anyway?

Ironically, the car dealers will decide this one, or at least influence it mightily -- they seem to own most of the land around there (and from there all the way up to the train tracks between Steeles and Clark).

Heritage buildings, yes, but mansion owners control most of the land near the station...a few low-rise buildings might be built on Yonge, but a Centre station probably won't see more than 1000 walk-in riders a day (this excludes bus riders, but bus riders can be diverted anywhere, such as 1km south to Clark). We're better off saving however many tens of millions of dollars by not building a station and using a tiny fraction of that money to run a bus on Yonge every 30 minutes if people complain.

If memory serves me correctly, there's just two small car dealers along Yonge near Cummer...they only control a sliver of the local area. The real determining factor would be the creation of a "North Downtown North York" secondary plan with a zone that will be thrown to the condo wolves, with extensions of Beecroft/Doris, etc.

As the current secondary plan indicates, the west service road will go to Drewry but the east one won't...and everything south of Cummer is already walking distance to Finch. http://www.toronto.ca/planning/official_plan/pdf_secondary/8_north_york_centre/ny_centre_8-11.pdf

 

[DENTROBATE54]

If $600 million is all that separates a 2-stop extension from a 6-stop, I'd go with Option 6. I'm not buying into this heritage talk over Centre/John since that intersection at least connects to more surface routes, including the vital 77 bus. We'd create a Rosedale-type station @Helen just for the sake of filling a large gap and yet overlook Centre Street ? Ironically Rosedale, an area very similar to Yonge and Centre, has a thriving walk-in crowd in spite of a lack of large scale mass high-rise developments on site.

Cummer is so relevant and has so much future potential it's ridiculous they'd omit a stop there. Don't let the Food Basics fool you, the glass-and-steel skycrapers will absorb everywhere between Bishop and Clark within a matter of years. It'd be wise to use some foresight here and plan ahead.

 

[RedRocket191]

Cummer is so relevant and has so much future potential it's ridiculous they'd omit a stop there. Don't let the Food Basics fool you, the glass-and-steel skycrapers will absorb everywhere between Bishop and Clark within a matter of years. It'd be wise to use some foresight here and plan ahead.

This principle should apply everywhere.

Just because something is a parking lot or an empty field now doesn't mean it will be the same in 10 years.

Look at Milton, which has gone from a village to a small city in my lifetime, and I'm only 23.

The traffic in the GTA is a nightmare because we've waited until after development has occurred before expanding the infrastructure. We can't let that happen anymore.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

There's a difference between placing stops where stops should be placed and placing stops where we think they look aesthetically pleasing on maps...token mid-concession stops count as the latter. Stops can always be added later if the area changes, or they can be added now to induce change. Planning for a Cummer station now would induce change that would later justify the station. Remember that dentrobate thinks any 3 condos counts as a "node" and deserves a subway station. But seeing as we have a blank cheque, we might as well splurge on a Cummer station (stretching north of Cummer)...the condo forest will grow northwards if permitted, and a Cummer station will help permit it, a sort of chicken/egg scenario.

Rosedale has a feeder bus and a lot more people living nearby, as well as being an extremely short trip to downtown. Centre is like putting a subway station in the Bridle Path; and it's buses can run to Clark. Is Centre necessary? No. Is it useful? Not especially. Perhaps it'll be placed south a bit, between John & Arnold/Elgin...that would be acceptable. Then Clark can go south of Clark, and Steeles can go south of Steeles, reducing walking times to stations along the entire length of Yonge. A Clark south of Clark station would be great for redeveloped Doncaster/dealership lands, and a Steeles south of Steeles station would be great for redeveloping Centerpoint and bungalows.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

There's a difference between placing stops where stops should be placed and placing stops where we think they look aesthetically pleasing on maps...token mid-concession stops count as the latter. Stops can always be added later if the area changes, or they can be added now to induce change. Planning for a Cummer station now would induce change that would later justify the station. Remember that dentrobate thinks any 3 condos counts as a "node" and deserves a subway station. But seeing as we have a blank cheque, we might as well splurge on a Cummer station (stretching north of Cummer)...the condo forest will grow northwards if permitted, and a Cummer station will help permit it, a sort of chicken/egg scenario.

I think I can speak for yourself, thank you. Furthermore you supported Option 4 with it's Helen stop. That sounds like a useless mid-block to me, that wouldn't even connect with Royal Orchard's 3 Thornhill-York U. The manifesto clearly state's Cummer can be added onto any of the options i.e. it's priceless. If it costs nothing extra to add it on, I say why not go for it.

I've tried walking from Finch Stn to Cummer and clocked it. It's a lengthy 12 mins, longer if you use the maze of catacombs meandering north of the station. Again the distance between Finch and Cummer/Drewry is exactly the same as Sheppard and Empress/Park Home (Sheppard and NYC Stns are both south-facing while Finch and Cummer would both be north facing).

Rosedale has a feeder bus and a lot more people living nearby, as well as being an extremely short trip to downtown. Centre is like putting a subway station in the Bridle Path; and it's buses can run to Clark. Is Centre necessary? No. Is it useful? Not especially. Perhaps it'll be placed south a bit, between John & Arnold/Elgin...that would be acceptable. Then Clark can go south of Clark, and Steeles can go south of Steeles, reducing walking times to stations along the entire length of Yonge. A Clark south of Clark station would be great for redeveloped Doncaster/dealership lands, and a Steeles south of Steeles station would be great for redeveloping Centerpoint and bungalows.

The 77 wouldn't have to route along Yonge St anymore. A property large enough to alott a loop-de-loop and shelter's all that is required in the Centre St vincinity for a stop there to be viable, hence your feeder bus. If Clark's self-sustaining already why not make it easier for Promenade/Concord/VCC/Woodbridge riders and give them a stop in their own alignment?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The manifesto clearly state's Cummer can be added onto any of the options i.e. it's priceless. If it costs nothing extra to add it on, I say why not go for it. A property large enough to alott a loop-de-loop and shelter's all that is required in the Centre St vincinity for a stop there to be viable, hence your feeder bus.

The report says "Cummer can be added in any scenario" because it is a York Region report...Cummer is not in York Region, so they're not planning around it.

Stations don't cost nothing to add...even with the blank cheque, it'll cost time to serve excess stations and it'll cost money to maintain them. If virtually all of a station's ridership arrives by bus, then that station could be moved/removed because buses can move or routes can be diverted anywhere, in which case the stop exists because aesthetically pleasing maps demand such spacing, not because it's needed. When planning lines, we should start with no stops and add the necessary/proper ones, not start with every possible stop and subtract only the most ridiculously inappropriate ones.

edit - and won't the 77 be a little redundant once Viva is upgraded or a 407 transitway is built? Centre will challenge Ellesmere for the least-used station in the GTA.

 

[drum118]

I did a 360 degree photo shoot of the 3 intersections last year as well walked Yonge and Center St will never support a subway stop in the first place.

Clark is the closes at this time supporting a station that can be built on day one of construction.

Royal Orchard is years off after the line is built.

Other than that, there is no other place for a station outside another Chester.

I use Clark as it would connect to the GO line along the York Sub.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

If virtually all of a station's ridership arrives by bus, then that station could be moved/removed because buses can move or routes can be diverted anywhere, in which case the stop exists because aesthetically pleasing maps demand such spacing, not because it's needed. When planning lines, we should start with no stops and add the necessary/proper ones, not start with every possible stop and subtract only the most ridiculously inappropriate ones.

edit - and won't the 77 be a little redundant once Viva is upgraded or a 407 transitway is built? Centre will challenge Ellesmere for the least-used station in the GTA.

That's only if you look at it from a walk-in perspective. Last I checked as near as John Street and extending south to Arnold/Elgin there's a sizable commercial strip. If developers were only looking at present-day land use at time of construction, Yorkville would still be a hippie haunt and the Bloor-Danforth which to this day is lined with primarily mixed low-rise store/apts wouldn't have gotten a subway line.

Out of Helen and John-Centre which station is more expendible? Subtract a station that just happens to be in the Hwy 7 alignment (one concession north of Steeles) which extends all the way to Peel and beyond... OR... keep a station that'll be worse than Bessarion with undevelopable lands to the north and south (Thornhill Golf Course, Holy Cross Cemetary, 407/7 catchment) and can't even interface with the 3 Thornhill-York U bus?

That said these coordinates wouldn't be taxing on anyone:
Cummer- Cummer-Wedgewood
Steeles- Nipigon-Highland Park
Clark- Glen Cameron-Clark Blvd
John-Centre- John-Centre

If Helen warrants it we'll add in a stop then. Meanwhile I think more passengers will enjoy a high-speed zone between John-Centre and Richmond Hill Centre withouit stopping.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Routes 3 and 77 combined have a miniscule ridership of less than 4,000 per day...even if we assume they all transfer to the Yonge line (they don't/won't), these precious few riders can stay on the bus for about 1km and go to Clark station, adding a bit of local service to Olde Thornhill's mansions. Oh, but it's on a concession...how can we possibly not have a stop there! Present day land use at Centre is also the future land use, except for a few infill 3 storey buildings - the mansions and heritage streetscape will not be slaughtered and paved over with Tridel. If people in Richmond Hill want a trip downtown that doesn't stop, they can take the GO train that's already right there.

The "undevelopable" land to the north of Holy Cross has actually seen a large proposal for condos and more: http://www.markham.ca/markham/ccbs/...nt/April 4/Paclang Holdings Inc. attach 3.pdf

Cemeteries make great neighbours. Permanently unobstructed views, green space for jogging or park use...and they're quiet.

 

[RedRocket191]

77's ridership should be taken into context.

Calling it miniscule ignores the fact that it is a lifeline for Brampton and Vaughan.

All planning has to be done in context or you'll end up with sprawl downtown or the Burj Dubai in Havelock.