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Moose Rail (National Capital Region)

mdrejhon said:
By then, I would hope that there's a Master Plan for the ginormous amount of land south of Rideau River near Billings Bridge. This area could densify to a cluster of 10-storey or 30-storey -- or even (heavens!) -- 60-storey buildings within 1km of the BRT+subway interchange at Billings Bridge. So much asphalt -- Data Centre, Billings Bridge, etc -- and so much opportunity for 100 years that could easily justify the Bank Street Subway.
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That's all federal land, so not a chance... other than for more government buildings.
 
The shopping centre itself is supposed to be intensified at some point. There is a master plan for this. Much of the land on the south side of Billings Bridge is flood plain and historically has been flooded many times. The two small office buildings near the river are subject to periodic flooding as it is.
 
OCCheetos said:
That's all federal land, so not a chance... other than for more government buildings.
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While not common, this is not unprecedented.

Federal land does intermittently get transferred from time to time, where it makes fiscal sense. For example, Federal transferred to Hamilton some land+building recently. Initially, Hamilton Pier 5,6,7,8 was federal land, then the final parcel (Discovery Centre) was finally transferred was also former federal land AFAIK. City of Hamilton is (controversially) trying to sell that facility to developers that would also develop the nearby Pier 8 lands. It's quite the waterfront denitrification plan that Hamilton has. Actual fed land to development.

209561
(Part of it is now under construction -- the new waterfront trail & the municipal prep work is underway for the developers who won the rights to build this)

See....Not unprecedented for federal to provide surplus land for development. This area is also near the convergence of the future A-Line BRT/LRT as well as the newly built West Harbour GO train station. Now you see where I am getting at about the magic recipe?

Patience (25 to 50 years) will be all that is required -- the right financial sense at the right time -- and the right arrangement: Freeing up massive amounts of useless parking lot asphalt with a solution (parking garage, extra fed buildings, and the remaining gets freed for other development). Rheoretical question; with Transitay BRT+Carling BRT/LRT+Bank St Subway converging at Billings Bridge -- that means there will be much land-value capture to unlock. At that point, why does Data Centre and other facilities need all that slowly-becoming-useless parking lot land anyway? Feds would easily get a free parking garage & a couple of free new buildings thrown in by a developer that really wants the parking lot lands for development. That's exactly how valuable Data Centre parking lot suddenly becomes. $$$$ $$$$ $$$$. Feds prefer to do nothing for now? Okay, it will just sit there for 10 years, 50 years, 100 years -- gaining value as nearby Billings Bridge densifies further. With climate accords pressuring transit expansions, land-value unlocks tends to occur. Like it just did in Hamilton. See? At some point, people will continue asking themselves that question for the rest of the century. As long as the development remains south of RA Centre, it won't interfere with recreational facilities or produce any shadows at Rideau River, and will have relatively low (albiet nonzero) NIMBY factor as no residentials are too nearby that. It might not happen for a few decades, but -- Billings Bridge will probably grow in mobility hub importance over the decades, encouraging a major densification opportunity of that area later this century. Especially if Billings Bridge starts first, then it spills over to optimizing nearby lands. Like, you know, Data Centre parking lot wasteland, and other opportunities.

If Hamilton can do it too, then Ottawa can. At least it's far more likely to happen than a MOOSE system.
 
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mdrejhon said:
Bridge it is, your idea makes better sense.

This potentially sounds like Phase 4 stuff though -- it is a ginormous cost.

By then, I would hope that there's a Master Plan for the ginormous amount of land south of Rideau River near Billings Bridge. This area could densify to a cluster of 10-storey or 30-storey -- or even (heavens!) -- 60-storey buildings within 1km of the BRT+subway interchange at Billings Bridge. So much asphalt -- Data Centre, Billings Bridge, etc -- and so much opportunity for 100 years that could easily justify the Bank Street Subway.

Just the existing parking lot asphalt alone within 1.5km of Billings Bridge -- is roughly half the surface area of Byward Market! The parking lots alone! That's even without using up any of the grass at RA Centre, Mooney's Bay or NCC lands -- even without touching the grass at all, just merely redeveloping the asphalt (and putting parking underground) would free up a boon of development space that justifies funding the Bank Street subway within 50 years. This area-of-opportunity sprawls all the way between the Billings Bridge station through near Mooney's Bay LRT station.

A metro route extending from either South Keys / Billings Bridge all the way to Gatineau-Hull, going underground near Billings Bridge and only surfacing at the cliff above Ottawa River. And if the Bank Street subway reaches South Keys LRT station, this also presents a potential possible opportunity to fork the Trillium line -- with service interleaving -- allowing a nonstop airport train (via Bank Street subway).

The sum of "Airport + South Keys densification/redevelopment + Billings densification/redevelopment + Bank Street + Stadium + Hull-Gatineau" = could potentially justify the cost of a Bank Street subway

Not yet, not now, but -- eventually. Phase 4 or Phase 5.

And especially after Phase 1 teething problems are a long-gone memory.

Either way -- this is a far more sensible idea than Moose Rail.
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Exactly. Once the extensions to the suburbs are finished, focus can shift back to a 2nd access route into downtown, which logically would be a Bank St Subway.

What I envision is that it assumes the Trillium Line alignment from just south of Mooney's Bay Stn (the junction with the VIA corridor) to Riverside South/Barrhaven. North of that point, it runs along the SE Transitway (converted to LRT) until Billings, and then under Bank into downtown. This corridor would carry two branches: one to Riverside South, the other to the Airport.

With an extension into Gatineau via the new Ottawa River Bridge, one branch could continue west to Aylmer via Gatineau's proposed LRT route, while the other branch could replace the Rapibus BRT corridor through Hull and old Gatineau. This would provide Gatineau residents with direct access to the Airport (assuming they are on the branch that goes directly there, if not it would just need to be a same-platform transfer where the two branches merge), and direct access to Downtown Ottawa.

The Trillium Line north of the Mooney's Bay junction would also be electrified, and a new V-shaped line would be created, running from Bayview to Billings to Hurdman, effectively providing a bypass route for downtown. This would also remove the last vestiges of BRT Transitway, as the Southeast Transitway is currently the only segment not planned to be converted as part of Phases 2 or 3.
 
I doubt the POW bridge will become rail transit, now that they have announced it will be a pathway (I think).
 
Both the Ottawa and Gatineau transit planners have concluded the POWB is in the wrong place to be a main transit link and will not be using it in the near future, but it is still on the radar as a "maybe in the future" option.
 
CapitalSeven said:
Both the Ottawa and Gatineau transit planners have concluded the POWB is in the wrong place to be a main transit link and will not be using it in the near future, but it is still on the radar as a "maybe in the future" option.
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What I don't understand is: if another operator wishes to use it, why would they try to stop them? Why not work with them?
 
micheal_can said:
What I don't understand is: if another operator wishes to use it, why would they try to stop them? Why not work with them?
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Yeah, I'm not exactly sure what's up with all the hate for MOOSE. Right now, the Ottawa/Outaouais region is a pinnacle of transit loserdom, but based on the majority of the comments here it seems like there are a lot of people who'd prefer to keep riding crappy buses into town for twice as long as a commuter train would take.
 
felix123 said:
Yeah, I'm not exactly sure what's up with all the hate for MOOSE. Right now, the Ottawa/Outaouais region is a pinnacle of transit loserdom, but based on the majority of the comments here it seems like there are a lot of people who'd prefer to keep riding crappy buses into town for twice as long as a commuter train would take.
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I think they fear it will be a high cost, or that it will go belly up.
 
micheal_can said:
I think they fear it will be a high cost, or that it will go belly up.
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IMO it's more that MOOSE's plan requires getting rid of the Trillium Line and replacing it with a system that is not part of OCTranspo, has no guaranteed transfer to OCTranspo, and may have worse frequencies than existing service. Essentially, MOOSE has not proven that anything they want will benefit anyone who actually lives in Ottawa. MOOSE at no point has suggested that they will pay for the improvements needed to double-track the Trillium Line (specifically the tunnel under Dow's Lake, which is the key choke point), which unless that happens, that track is currently running at capacity, which means there is zero space for MOOSE trains, unless the Trillium Line is shut down or severely crippled. So in order to have MOOSE, Ottawa has to essentially lose its North-South transit line, because if you look at the MOOSE plan, most of the exiting trillium line stations would lose service should MOOSE take over the rail corridor. Why should anyone in Ottawa be excited about that?

Basically, its like if a private rail operator told us they wanted to take over the Bloor-Danforth Line to give people in some small exurban communities better service, while closing most of the existing stations. No one in Toronto would go for that.
 
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