Moose Rail (National Capital Region)

[Allandale25]

Analysis: Why the city is now moving quickly to build a pathway on the Prince of Wales Bridge

If the federal Liberals unveil a stimulus program, the city wants the engineering and design work in hand, ready to tender construction.

ottawacitizen.com

 

[jayme2016]

Analysis: Why the city is now moving quickly to build a pathway on the Prince of Wales Bridge

If the federal Liberals unveil a stimulus program, the city wants the engineering and design work in hand, ready to tender construction.

ottawacitizen.com

I think in part to appease some groups.

 

[Allandale25]

Recent quotes from the Moose proponent.

Ottawa clears environmental, planning studies for Prince of Wales Bridge pedestrian/cycling link --- but MOOSE is waiting in the bushes

Ontario Construction News staff writer Ottawa City Council’s decided last week to spend $540,000 on an environmental assessment, design and permits for to

ontarioconstructionnews.com

 

[kEiThZ]

I'll eat my hat, if that dude actually has investors willing to put in $50M for a rail bridge.

The City should start the decommissioning process and call his bluff.

 

[micheal_can]

I'll eat my hat, if that dude actually has investors willing to put in $50M for a rail bridge.

The City should start the decommissioning process and call his bluff.

Why?
I can see this bridge being used for rail once they decide to cross the river to connect to Gatineau's RT.

 

[kEiThZ]

Why?
I can see this bridge being used for rail once they decide to cross the river to connect to Gatineau's RT.

You should read up on the story. This crazy nutter thought he could use regulatory chicanery centred on the bridge to get the authorities to force the city to allow an entirely parallel railway system, all funded by far flung real estate development, based on theories of such developments in the comparable cities of ... Hong Kong and Singapore. All because the dude was upset that he couldn't get a train to his favourite pub in Wakefield.

There's no business case. I doubt there's any investors. And the city certainly isn't interested in facilitating a parallel rail system to help development in areas that won't pay them taxes. Call his bluff and let him put up $50M at the time of discontinuation. He'll need 10x that to actually build the service he wants. So if by some miracle he was able to buy the bridge, I'd bet money that he'd be selling it back for pennies on the dollar in a few years.

 

[micheal_can]

You should read up on the story. This crazy nutter thought he could use regulatory chicanery centred on the bridge to get the authorities to force the city to allow an entirely parallel railway system, all funded by far flung real estate development, based on theories of such developments in the comparable cities of ... Hong Kong and Singapore. All because the dude was upset that he couldn't get a train to his favourite pub in Wakefield.

There's no business case. I doubt there's any investors. And the city certainly isn't interested in facilitating a parallel rail system to help development in areas that won't pay them taxes. Call his bluff and let him put up $50M at the time of discontinuation. He'll need 10x that to actually build the service he wants. So if by some miracle he was able to buy the bridge, I'd bet money that he'd be selling it back for pennies on the dollar in a few years.

I know the business case is weak at best. However, as a public entity, using that bridge for a connection to Gatineau makes sense.

 

[Allandale25]

I'll eat my hat, if that dude actually has investors willing to put in $50M for a rail bridge.

The City should start the decommissioning process and call his bluff.

Given media coverage on the Ottawa/Gatineau using another route to cross the river for future RT, I wonder what the strategy is for decommissioning? I assume it makes it even more difficult to Moose to participate in the decommissioning process if the City waits as long as possible to start the process?

 

[kEiThZ]

I know the business case is weak at best. However, as a public entity, using that bridge for a connection to Gatineau makes sense.

Except that neither Gatineau nor Ottawa is interested in doing so. Which is why Ottawa proposed turning it into a bike path.

This is aside from the whole random takeover of a rail corridor justified by specifically federal rules. Imagine for a second, there was some rule that said if the TTC wants to abandon a track, you can buy it and then force the TTC to let you run your trains on the entire subway network. Sound crazy? That's exactly what MOOSE is proposing here. They aren't buying the bridge for just the bridge. It's because they can then force the Trillium Line and other rail corridors to be shared, as per their interpretation of federal laws and regulations.

In any event, all I'm suggesting is that the city should get on with the process. He says he has money to buy the bridge? Alright, let's see his investors actually put their money where his mouth is.

 

[kEiThZ]

Given media coverage on the Ottawa/Gatineau using another route to cross the river for future RT, I wonder what the strategy is for decommissioning? I assume it makes it even more difficult to Moose to participate in the decommissioning process if the City waits as long as possible to start the process?

I actually do wished the Trillium Line crossed and terminated at Alexandre Taché. But nobody else (especially those in power) seems to think this is necessary. Gatineau is very much focused on running their LRT on the Portage or Alexandra bridges. And OC Transpo isn't interested in having their entire rail network become a federally regulated railway because of one stop on the other side of the river. Not to mention proper service would actually require a whole new bridge.

Like I said, I don't think he actually has the cash. Pledges are easy. Far more difficult to pony up when you know the business case is shitty. So start the decommissioning and give him (and everybody else) the standard 30 days or whatever to put in their firm bids. If he can't finance or its below salvage value, they can tell him to take a hike and move on with their plans.

 

[micheal_can]

Except that neither Gatineau nor Ottawa is interested in doing so. Which is why Ottawa proposed turning it into a bike path.

This is aside from the whole random takeover of a rail corridor justified by specifically federal rules. Imagine for a second, there was some rule that said if the TTC wants to abandon a track, you can buy it and then force the TTC to let you run your trains on the entire subway network. Sound crazy? That's exactly what MOOSE is proposing here. They aren't buying the bridge for just the bridge. It's because they can then force the Trillium Line and other rail corridors to be shared, as per their interpretation of federal laws and regulations.

In any event, all I'm suggesting is that the city should get on with the process. He says he has money to buy the bridge? Alright, let's see his investors actually put their money where his mouth is.

I am not suggesting MOOSE be able to do what they proposed doing. I am suggesting that the existing Trillium line be extended into Gatineau.

I actually do wished the Trillium Line crossed and terminated at Alexandre Taché. But nobody else (especially those in power) seems to think this is necessary. Gatineau is very much focused on running their LRT on the Portage or Alexandra bridges. And OC Transpo isn't interested in having their entire rail network become a federally regulated railway because of one stop on the other side of the river. Not to mention proper service would actually require a whole new bridge.

Like I said, I don't think he actually has the cash. Pledges are easy. Far more difficult to pony up when you know the business case is shitty. So start the decommissioning and give him (and everybody else) the standard 30 days or whatever to put in their firm bids. If he can't finance or its below salvage value, they can tell him to take a hike and move on with their plans.

A simple solution is one that would fix more than this issue.... Change the Ottawa and Gatineau area into a new province. I know it is a tad extreme to fix this small issue, but the real issue is that there are 2 cites that are connected in many ways are sliced in 2 by a lot of red tape. If the 2 cites were combined into 1 city how much easier this prloem would be to solve.

 

[kEiThZ]

So $500 million for a commuter rail system in Ottawa?

Not for Ottawa. For his fantasy of serving places like Wakefield and Perth. His network would have no ability to serve existing riders with even a fraction of the frequencies they will get from the Trillium Line or Confederation Line. Let's not forget, his original plan was hourly service on each of the branches at peak. Would you give up Trillium Line service for a train that runs every 15-20 mins and possibly fewer stations? And that's assuming he even serves Ottawa. His model required communities to pay an area tax to get a station. So you'd have to pay MOOSE on top of your City of Ottawa taxes. How's that sound?

Imagine if instead of dropping billions on LRT lines, Ottawa spent that in partnerships with other municipalities and the province to get a commuter rail service.

Just imagine. We should all be grateful that a city of a million actually favoured urban transit and didn't blow billions facilitating transit induced sprawl to communities which won't actually pay taxes to the City of Ottawa.

You seem disappointed and surprised that Ottawa's politicians and bureaucrats put the needs of Ottawa's taxpayers and residents first.

They should position it to be the starting point of a commuter/regional system, but these supremely short-sighted move is going to hinder that.

Have you ever looked up the populations of the towns in question? How many riders and trains per day do you think Almonte or Pontiac could support? These places can't even support their own commuter bus services today. So the plan was to facilitate sprawl with a train (by screwing over Ottawa residents) and have the sprawling communities pay a tax for service to MOOSE.

 

[kEiThZ]

A simple solution is one that would fix more than this issue.... Change the Ottawa and Gatineau area into a new province.

Anybody who thinks this is simple must not have lived in Canada in the last half century. What makes you think either province is interested in giving up a chunk of net revenue paying territory? You think the other provinces are interested with yet another Premier at the table?

There's an even easier solution though. Creating a federal transit/transportation commission for the NCR. But, again, this will never happen because most federal MPs (who aren't from Ottawa) aren't particularly interested in having the Feds become financial responsible for Ottawa and spending more there.

Ultimately though, the bridge really isn't that critical to regional transportation. And both Ottawa and Gatineau are aiming to have riders deposited directly downtown rather than at an interchange station 2km from downtown.

 

[kEiThZ]

I am saying is that the idea of having a regional rail system in the Ottawa area is something that should have been more seriously looked at.

There's no need for a regional rail system to serve a bunch of hamlets and towns with a few thousand people each. Especially not if that takes up finite track capacity and impacts the services of Ottawa residents.

And if anybody was going to setup such a system, it most definitely shouldn't be the responsibility of the City of Ottawa. Let those communities petition Queen's Park to set up a GO system to serve them. I don't see why Ottawa taxpayers should subsidize their commutes.

I totally disagree that it would have created transit-induced sprawl.

You can disagree, but this is literally what the basis of MOOSE's proposal was. It was called "Property powered rail". The proposal specifically pitched outlying communities on the prospect of gaining substantial development based on offering commuter rail service.

In essence, what the whole laser focus on LRT did was let other rail infrastructure deteriorate, thus trapping residents who don't live in Ottawa in their cars unless they want to take a bus that gets stuck in traffic. It would have been nice to see more equitable transit distribution in the region.

Ottawa residents don't pay taxes to the City of Ottawa to have it spent on commuters from elsewhere. I'd go so far as to say that major metros like Ottawa should consider congestion charges that specifically target these out of town residents who are basically resorting to sprawl arbitrage on the backs of urban and suburban ratepayers. Let's see how many people would commute from Arnprior if they had to pay $5 every time they entered Ottawa.

 

[kEiThZ]

Is there supposed to be a problem with this? I could see if they were building subdivisions for people to drive in to the city every day, but this is transit oriented development encouraging people to use transit and active transport. Certainly a refreshing change and better use of land compared to how smaller towns grow now.

Building giant parking lots to facilitate ex-urban commuters driving in from their acre lot subdivisions isn't really "transit oriented development" no matter how people want to spin it.

And I literally never said they were the only ones that had to be funding such a system.

You didn't say it. But it's the end result of just such a policy when no other government is interested in funding such a system.

What I will say is that Ottawa's laser focus on LRT has and will, as we are about to see with the bridge, destroy corridors that could have been used to enable this type of service in the future.

The corridor is not being destroyed. The Trillium Line is literally using the corridor. The bridge isn't being destroyed either. They could return it to rail service if they want any time.

But let's be clear. This is an asset owned by the taxpayers of the City of Ottawa. They paid for it. They should be allowed to use it as they see fit. And they would be able to do exactly that in any other circumstance but for the quirk of geography and regulation that impacts rails and bridges specifically connecting more than one province.