Moose Rail (National Capital Region)

[TossYourJacket]

Yeah, I'm not exactly sure what's up with all the hate for MOOSE. Right now, the Ottawa/Outaouais region is a pinnacle of transit loserdom, but based on the majority of the comments here it seems like there are a lot of people who'd prefer to keep riding crappy buses into town for twice as long as a commuter train would take.

Because MOOSE's plan requires gutting one of Ottawa's two existing rapid transit lines. They may have gotten more support if their plan didn't require killing the only North-South rapid transit rail line in the city. They also have spent years doing nothing but promising absurdly soon delivery dates with zero actual progress beyond a lot of lawsuits.

 

[OCCheetos]

So they're waiting for the CTA to enforce a ruling that was rescinded by the Federal Cabinet? I feel like they're gonna be waiting a while...

Technically, their position is that Cabinet rescinded one of two orders given by the CTA. A prior order by the CTA is technically still standing..

 

[micheal_can]

Because MOOSE's plan requires gutting one of Ottawa's two existing rapid transit lines. They may have gotten more support if their plan didn't require killing the only North-South rapid transit rail line in the city. They also have spent years doing nothing but promising absurdly soon delivery dates with zero actual progress beyond a lot of lawsuits.

Then maybe they are tld that they can use the bridge, but only to Bayview.

 

[Allandale25]

Technically, their position is that Cabinet rescinded one of two orders given by the CTA. A prior order by the CTA is technically still standing..

What's the prior order?

 

[TossYourJacket]

I'm still confused as to how they think the people of Ottawa are going to back them against the city in support of a plan that is detrimental to the citizens of Ottawa in favour of causing massive sprawl to the exurbs. Doesn't seem like the best business model.

 

[kEiThZ]

I'm still confused as to how they think the people of Ottawa are going to back them against the city in support of a plan that is detrimental to the citizens of Ottawa in favour of causing massive sprawl to the exurbs. Doesn't seem like the best business model.

Their "genius" plan was a hope that the CTA would literally force the city to hand over the bridge and provide access to Trillium Line corridor. They don't care about the citizens of Ottawa. They believed they could steamroll this through and that politicians would back them. Then when it turned out that politicians wouldn't back them, and that the CTA could be overruled by cabinet, they started whining about the politicians.

 

[Charles]

What's the prior order?

Working partly from memory here, so apologies if the specific facts are a little off.

The prior order dates back to 2012 (link). At that time MOOSE complained about lack of maintenance on the POW Bridge and argued that that resulted in a discontinuance of the line. The CTA ruled on the complaint and indicated that they had no jurisdiction on maintenance standards and so they dismissed the complaint. They did however find that the City had omitted to include the POW Bridge in its 3 year plan and so they ordered the City to resubmit their 3 year plan iaw Section 141 of the CTA.

The second order was from 2018 (link) and was a result of a complaint by MOOSE against the City regarding the construction of the Bayview Station and the resulting obstruction of the original line, thus arguing once again that the City had effectively discontinued the line. In this case the CTA ruling was in MOOSE's favour. However, as most folks here are aware, that order was overturned by an Order in Council in 2019 (link). That OIC indicated that it was not necessary to maintain the line in working order at all times in order to retain it. Therefore there was no need to proceed with a formal discontinuance, nor to return the line to operational condition. There is an Explanatory Note that elaborates on the OIC but unfortunately I can't find a link to it at the moment.

Since the OIC only overturned the 2018 CTA decision concerning the Bayview Station, MOOSE believes that they can still seek enforcement on the 2012 CTA decision regarding the POW Bridge. MOOSE views that decision as a victory because the City needed to include the Bridge portion of the rail line in its 3 year plan, and continues to do so. MOOSE is still of the opinion that identifying a line in your 3 year plan as "retain" leads to a requirement to maintain the line in an operational condition.. However, the fact remains that the CTA is not responsible for oversight of maintenance on the line, as per their original decision. Additionally, the OIC on the 2018 decision has made it quite clear and therefore set a precedence that there is no requirement to maintain a rail line in operational condition as long as they are able to provide reasonable alternates to allow for the free movement of goods (and 'goods' does not include passengers). The City should be well within their rights to convert the Bridge to a pedestrian/bike corridor while still indicating on their 3 year plan that they are "retaining" the line. As indicated previously, 'retaining' the line does not have any mandate to maintain it in any sort of operational capacity, only that the potential still exists for it to be returned to rail use at some point in the future.

Edit: A copy of the Explanatory Note to the OIC can be found within the zip file at the following link.

 

[Allandale25]

^ Thank you for the detailed summary!

 

[Allandale25]

I guess Moose was looking to add content to their site in the absence of any progress for them or any favourable news, so this has been added:

MOOSE CONSORTIUM’S TEN URGENT STEPS TO SOLVE THE
GREATER NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION’S TRANSIT PROBLEM

home - Moose Consortium Inc.

www.letsgomoose.ca

They also posted it to their Facebook account here.

 

[Allandale25]

A July 2020 article with quotes from Joseph Potvin at Moose.

The Prince of Wales Bridge decommissioning: Moose Consortium says Ottawa can’t do that

Ontario Construction News staff writer Will a private sector proposed $50 million initiative to refurbish Ottawa’s decrepit Prince of Wales bridge into the

ontarioconstructionnews.com

“Moose Consortium’s plans have been laser-focused and consistent since we began,” Potvin said on Sunday. “We are patient. We are also each extremely busy with other work, but this project remains on our ‘front burner’, primed for when the timing is right. We have many allies within both city administrations who keep their heads down due to the political pressures . . . therefore, no, I cannot validate that statement.”

 

[jayme2016]

Does anybody know when CN is going to end operations in Ottawa? Strange that it has held on as long as it has after CN put it up for abandonment. Won't be good once they're gone though. Rideau Bulk terminal at Walkley will have to shut down, same thing with Nylene in Arnprior. And all the extra trucks on the road needed for Ivaco in L'Orignal won't be pretty, not to mention all the other industries using CN in the area. It is also going to be pretty weird having a major city like Ottawa without any freight rail service.

I don't think they plan on end service to Ottawa.

 

[micheal_can]

I don't think they plan on end service to Ottawa.

How do they get up to Ottawa?

 

[OCCheetos]

I don't think they plan on end service to Ottawa.

It would be odd for them to abandon all of their trackage while maintaining any kind of service.
IMO CN is probably going to leave town, but I think there's a high likelihood that a short line will move in.

How do they get up to Ottawa?

They already use VIA's tracks to get to/from Coteau, so there wouldn't be much change there.

 

[HighIron905]

A July 2020 article with quotes from Joseph Potvin at Moose.

The Prince of Wales Bridge decommissioning: Moose Consortium says Ottawa can’t do that

Ontario Construction News staff writer Will a private sector proposed $50 million initiative to refurbish Ottawa’s decrepit Prince of Wales bridge into the

ontarioconstructionnews.com

It is one thing for the mayors to say that the Prince of Wales Bridge won't be used as the primary interprovincial link, but to outright refuse to run any rail services over it is just a weird thing to do. You can build pedestrian bridges wherever you want, but it is hard to replace rail links like this, especially in the case of a link between the QGRY and the Capital Railway.

Commuter/regional rail in Ottawa is something that should have happened a long time ago. It's just weird that a private consortium is more serious about it than any level of government. With that said, I wish them luck because they are really standing in the way of the loss of some important infrastructure here.

 

[OCCheetos]

It is one thing for the mayors to say that the Prince of Wales Bridge won't be used as the primary interprovincial link, but to outright refuse to run any rail services over it is just a weird thing to do.

It was an election stunt in support of McKenna. Planners from both city still maintain that the bridge could still be used as a secondary rail link in the future.