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Moose Rail (National Capital Region)

kEiThZ

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I don't know why you're taking this conversation seriously and literally, all that is being argued is that repurposing Union Station sometime in the future as the region grows isn't an unreasonable idea, and could be looked into as a potential future project. If the population doesn't grow, then we don't build it. It's that simple.

I mean if we're going to daydream about to how spend a billion dollars, I wish that was directed at something that actually makes a difference for most residents.

I have a dream. That some day, regardless of which city or neighbourhood people live in, they can get a bus in less than 15 mins.
 

micheal_can

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If the suburbs outside the Greenbelt area are served by O-Train, where will the ridership for a commuter rail system come from?

Let;s start where rail already is, like Arnprior, Smith Falls, and Casselman.
Then we look at places where old rail lines ran to, such as Carlton Place, Kemptville, and Rockland and beyond.

Think of it this way, GO trains go to Barrie, Kitchener, and Hamilton, all of which are not considered suburbs of Toronto.

Spending a billion dollars for 30k riders per day is also questionable. Mostly though you have to ask what a billion dollars would do for Ottawa. This is a city with terrible feeder bus service that still runs most routes 15 mins at peak and 20+ mins off peak. A billion dollars would literally double the bus fleet. I would argue that would generate a lot more ridership than this proposal.

Also, who has any idea what travel patterns will be in 30-40 years as the feds move to more remote working and move out of the downtown core? The entirety of Ottawa's rapid transit network design is based on peak ridership, largely based on serving lots of public servants heading to the core. Now the largest employer in town says their employees don't have to come to the office everyday and it's moving many of their workplaces out of the core.

Anybody who says they know what peak loads will be in 30-40 years in specific corridors, is full of it. 30 years ago, people barely had dial up internet. Now people can work from home in their PJs. I can't even imagine what working is going to be like in another 30 years. But this at least means that transit can finally be designed to provide city wide mobility, as opposed to a hyper focus on downtown bound commuters.

How many riders per day does the West Coast Express serve?

I don't know why you're taking this conversation seriously and literally, all that is being argued is that repurposing Union Station sometime in the future as the region grows isn't an unreasonable idea, and could be looked into as a potential future project. If the population doesn't grow, then we don't build it. It's that simple.

That is the point of talking about this is a vision for the future. So many people are stuck in the present that a future idea is bad.

I mean if we're going to daydream about to how spend a billion dollars, I wish that was directed at something that actually makes a difference for most residents.

I have a dream. That some day, regardless of which city or neighbourhood people live in, they can get a bus in less than 15 mins.
I do not understand why in a city such as Ottawa, 15 minute service isn't a reality.
 

kEiThZ

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I do not understand why in a city such as Ottawa, 15 minute service isn't a reality.

Because suburbanites who only use transit a maximum of 10x per week don't care about transit outside of commuter services. The constant demand for rail extensions is just another form of that mindset. They want it to make their commute more comfortable. It also explains the fixation with pointing every single fantasy proposal to the core. Facilitating actual mobility across the city? They don't care about that. And most of Ottawa is pretty suburban. Even inside the Greenbelt. Ottawa residents think more like someone from Mississauga or Markham than someone from the Annex or Beaches or Fort York.

At least Toronto is finally starting to get over their downtown fixation somewhat with the Eglinton line. Ottawa is probably 30-40 years away from even thinking about transit that bypasses the core.
 

micheal_can

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Because suburbanites who only use transit a maximum of 10x per week don't care about transit outside of commuter services. The constant demand for rail extensions is just another form of that mindset. They want it to make their commute more comfortable. It also explains the fixation with pointing every single fantasy proposal to the core. Facilitating actual mobility across the city? They don't care about that. And most of Ottawa is pretty suburban. Even inside the Greenbelt. Ottawa residents think more like someone from Mississauga or Markham than someone from the Annex or Beaches or Fort York.

So, somehow that change needs to happen.

At least Toronto is finally starting to get over their downtown fixation somewhat with the Eglinton line. Ottawa is probably 30-40 years away from even thinking about transit that bypasses the core.
Aren't they planning a Baseline BRT? Would that work for your wants?
 

kEiThZ

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Aren't they planning a Baseline BRT? Would that work for your wants?

Hardly. BRTs aren't very useful if your feeder bus frequency is poor. And so far Ottawa seems to use rail transit expansion as an excuse to cut their bus fleet rather than enable service expansion. Also this is planned to terminate at Heron, leaving a massive hole in the Southeast corner of the city. Better than nothing. But it's not going to really enable cross town travel like the Eglinton line in Toronto will.
 

micheal_can

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Hardly. BRTs aren't very useful if your feeder bus frequency is poor. And so far Ottawa seems to use rail transit expansion as an excuse to cut their bus fleet rather than enable service expansion. Also this is planned to terminate at Heron, leaving a massive hole in the Southeast corner of the city. Better than nothing. But it's not going to really enable cross town travel like the Eglinton line in Toronto will.

If it was built as an LRT and was extended all the way to the 417, would that be better? They could even make a park and ride at highways 417 and 416.
 

micheal_can

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LRT would actually make it worse by adding more transfers.

So, not BRT, and not LRT... What exactly do you think it should be?

Extending to the 417 should be the minimum. Ideally, they'd take it up the 417 and then create an Innes branch right to Trim, serving the southern half of Orleans.
Ah, so connecting to the other branch of the existing/under construction LRT?
 

kEiThZ

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So, not BRT, and not LRT... What exactly do you think it should be?

When did I say it shouldn't be BRT? Read my post carefully.

Ah, so connecting to the other branch of the existing/under construction LRT?

It doesn't have to terminate at Trim station. But it should reach Trim Rd to ensure that all is the bottom half of Orleans is covered.
 

micheal_can

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Hardly. BRTs aren't very useful if your feeder bus frequency is poor. And so far Ottawa seems to use rail transit expansion as an excuse to cut their bus fleet rather than enable service expansion. Also this is planned to terminate at Heron, leaving a massive hole in the Southeast corner of the city. Better than nothing. But it's not going to really enable cross town travel like the Eglinton line in Toronto will.

When did I say it shouldn't be BRT? Read my post carefully.
I read that as BRT is bad.

So, explain it to me as if I am a 5 year old... .what do you want, or what do you not want?
It doesn't have to terminate at Trim station. But it should reach Trim Rd to ensure that all is the bottom half of Orleans is covered.
Would extending it to Trim Station be a good thing though?
 

kEiThZ

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I read that as BRT is bad.

So, explain it to me as if I am a 5 year old... .what do you want, or what do you not want?

BRT and LRT are tools. They are only as good as the frequency run on them. If you build a brand new tram line run service twice an hour, it's pretty useless.

My concern is that this BRT won't have adequate service for rapid transit (sub 10 min headways) because Ottawa seems to only be interested in cutting the bus fleet as their rail network expands. Just look at their bus fleet numbers. The city keeps growing in geographic size and population but the bus fleet is slowly shrinking and planned to continue to shrink. This is even creating a backlash against the LRT in some places, because those areas were used to much higher bus frequencies before the Confederation Line.

Would extending it to Trim Station be a good thing though?

It could close the loop I guess. I don't think it's absolutely necessary, because very few people will be going east to take the train from Trim. That is after all the purpose of any Innes BRT: to provide an alternative to the LRT line to the north. Presumably if you are heading downtown, you grab a local bus to the LRT. If you are heading to the West end, you would grab a bus going on the BRT. Nice to have. But not as essential as covering all of Innes itself till Trim.
 

micheal_can

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BRT and LRT are tools. They are only as good as the frequency run on them. If you build a brand new tram line run service twice an hour, it's pretty useless.

My concern is that this BRT won't have adequate service for rapid transit (sub 10 min headways) because Ottawa seems to only be interested in cutting the bus fleet as their rail network expands. Just look at their bus fleet numbers. The city keeps growing in geographic size and population but the bus fleet is slowly shrinking and planned to continue to shrink.

Build any RT and run it at low frequency and it is useless.

So, let's say this route was run sub 10 minute frequency, would it be a good thing?
 

kEiThZ

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So, if it were an LRT running at the same frequency of line 1, you would then be happy with some tunneling and activating the old Union station?

No. Because that would defeat the point of bypassing downtown. It would also add a transfer from bus to LRT. The beauty of the BRT is a one seat ride from your neighborhood to the other side of the city. And this is something Ottawa did exceptionally well with the old Transitways and was highly popular, to the point of substantial resistance to LRT. Losing those services actually cost ridership.

Let's not forget that Ottawa only built the Confederation Line because of the volume of ridership exceeding the capacity of BRT. This is highly unlikely to happen for decades on Baseline/Heron/Walkley/Innes without massive development, which is also unlikely.
 

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