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Moose Rail (National Capital Region)

micheal_can

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Yes, and Central station isn't between the two biggest trip generators in the country, it is one of the biggest trip generators in the country. Major difference.

Right now, you are correct.Which is also why this would not happen right now.

Fair enough, but perhaps more properly discussed in an existing fantasy thread. There's little to no way to either justify or denigrate it.

I though the idea of Moose rail was more of a fantasy.....

No clue. I just tossed out an idea. I thought that's what we were doing.

I tossed out an idea and then gave some reasons that it could work out well. So, you also missed the point.

And literally not in any plan or even discussed in public in Ottawa. The Bank St subway has a better chance of happening than this.

Not in the least because the public in Ottawa isn't asking for commuter rail. They want LRT extensions to their hood. And nobody cares about VIA Rail moving downtown.

Let's not forget that none of this is free. And if you asked Ottawa residents whether they'd rather pay a billion for a reactivation of Union or put the towards an LRT extension, people would laugh that this is even a question.

First off, I have no expectations that this will even be thought of before the LRT has been built out to at least Stage 3 or4.

Second, I know that it is not even a though of anyone's. Having said that, if someone saw this and in10-20 years made a proposal to do it, after all the LRT has been built out, It would transform how transportation in the city and area is done.
 

kEiThZ

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Having said that, if someone saw this and in10-20 years made a proposal to do it, after all the LRT has been built out, It would transform how transportation in the city and area is done.

In the absolute best case scenario, in 10 years they will have barely finished extensions to Kanata and Barrhaven. Given financial situation of all three levels of government and other priorities (what to with Trillium Line), there's no chance this is even going to be discussed in 20 years.

Next, whatever happens with VIA seals the fate here. If VIA builds HFR based on a single thru corridor of Toronto to Montreal via Ottawa, zero chance they'll be moving to the core. And if VIA doesn't move to the core, there will no interest in building up other heavy rail services to the core.

You can keep fantasizing about it. But really, nobody in Ottawa talks about it or is even interested. The only time that reactivating Union was brought up, was for Rideau station. And then it turned out to be complicated and expensive and too far from Byward Market. Reactivating the station for even less ridership seems very unlikely.
 

kEiThZ

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Friendly reminder that the topic of this thread is „Moose Rail (National Capital Region)“. There is a thread for almost every possible topic and if there isn’t one already, it can be created within seconds…

Sadly, Moose kind of had a point with a crossing at the PoW bridge. Would have been a good connection to the Rapibus on the other side. Too bad they weren't just advocates but weird clowns who wanted the courts to hand over an entire rail system to them that they intended to hold ransom with various neighbourhoods and towns. Such weirdos.
 

micheal_can

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In the absolute best case scenario, in 10 years they will have barely finished extensions to Kanata and Barrhaven. Given financial situation of all three levels of government and other priorities (what to with Trillium Line), there's no chance this is even going to be discussed in 20 years.

If we look back 10 years ago, our financial situation hasn't been any better or worse. Around 15 years ago, there was a blip.So, in 20 years from now, it may be done.

Next, whatever happens with VIA seals the fate here. If VIA builds HFR based on a single thru corridor of Toronto to Montreal via Ottawa, zero chance they'll be moving to the core. And if VIA doesn't move to the core, there will no interest in building up other heavy rail services to the core.

Last I checked, the existing corridor through Ottawa will remain the same regardless of HFR.
I am guessing they won't just be adding more thru trains, but also adding more trains that terminate in Ottawa. So, with 15 trains that currently terminate in Ottawa and 15 trains starting in Ottawa, al I'd expect is those to go up to double the current numbers. Sounds like an even better reason for it, not less of a reason for it.

You can keep fantasizing about it. But really, nobody in Ottawa talks about it or is even interested. The only time that reactivating Union was brought up, was for Rideau station. And then it turned out to be complicated and expensive and too far from Byward Market. Reactivating the station for even less ridership seems very unlikely.

I know no one is talking about it. Outside of this forum, I doubt anyone will be talking about it for a few decades.
 

kEiThZ

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If we look back 10 years ago, our financial situation hasn't been any better or worse. Around 15 years ago, there was a blip.So, in 20 years from now, it may be done.

The Mayor of Ottawa specifically said they want Stage 3 to be 100% funded by the province and feds. He says the city's debt burden is quite high after Stage 2. So if they can't afford Stage 3 and still have to worry about Trillium after that, where is all this money for an expensive train tunnel and station rehab and commuter rail network coming from? Oh and all of those comments were before Covid when all three levels of government booked record deficit.

Last I checked, the existing corridor through Ottawa will remain the same regardless of HFR.
I am guessing they won't just be adding more thru trains, but also adding more trains that terminate in Ottawa. So, with 15 trains that currently terminate in Ottawa and 15 trains starting in Ottawa, al I'd expect is those to go up to double the current numbers. Sounds like an even better reason for it, not less of a reason for it.

Where in the HFR proposal did they ever mention trains terminating in Ottawa? I never saw it. So if you did, please link to it.

HFR presumes through service. It's the only way to get high utilization out of the rolling stock. To that end, the extra 15 min diversion will never be accepted, since there's always going to be more Montreal or Toronto bound pax on the train than Ottawa passengers. If Union station was in-service, they might have settled for it. But they most certainly aren't going out of the way to spend billions to slow down service.

I know no one is talking about it. Outside of this forum, I doubt anyone will be talking about it for a few decades.

Nobody will ever be talking about it. The billions involved are better spent on almost any other transit idea in Ottawa.
 

micheal_can

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The Mayor of Ottawa specifically said they want Stage 3 to be 100% funded by the province and feds. He says the city's debt burden is quite high after Stage 2. So if they can't afford Stage 3 and still have to worry about Trillium after that, where is all this money for an expensive train tunnel and station rehab and commuter rail network coming from? Oh and all of those comments were before Covid when all three levels of government booked record deficit.

Right now, you are correct in your vision as it stands now.
Let's play a "what if". What if Stage 3 is 100% funded by the province and feds. What if the province and feds asked for what Ottawa wanted next? What if someone suggested this? What if the province and feds funded it 100%?
Hey, look, it gets built.
What if none of that happens? Then the old union station stays what it is. Then the Via station stays what it is. Then the rail lines stays as is.

Where in the HFR proposal did they ever mention trains terminating in Ottawa? I never saw it. So if you did, please link to it.

HFR presumes through service. It's the only way to get high utilization out of the rolling stock. To that end, the extra 15 min diversion will never be accepted, since there's always going to be more Montreal or Toronto bound pax on the train than Ottawa passengers. If Union station was in-service, they might have settled for it. But they most certainly aren't going out of the way to spend billions to slow down service.

I have never seen anything except for the subdivisions they want for HFR. Nowhere do they state what the actual changes will be, so my assumptions are they will just increase the type of service they have now. Since the whole HFR is from Toronto to Quebec City, would that mean the Centre station would need to be changed as you would need to back in and out of it? That assumes all trains would run the entire route multiple times.

Nobody will ever be talking about it. The billions involved are better spent on almost any other transit idea in Ottawa.

You and I are.
Others on here are as well.
I would not suggest this over other things as those things currently are more important.
When it becomes a priority would be when the highways are in insufferable gridlock and commuter rail is seen as a solution. Then it will be thought of on an official level.
 

kEiThZ

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When it becomes a priority would be when the highways are in insufferable gridlock and commuter rail is seen as a solution. Then it will be thought of on an official level.

The solution to traffic in Ottawa is extending LRT coverage and fixing their terrible feeder bus network. Not reactivating Union station.
 

micheal_can

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The solution to traffic in Ottawa is extending LRT coverage and fixing their terrible feeder bus network. Not reactivating Union station.
If that were the case, traffic in the Lower Mainland would be improving. After all, that is their answer.
The GTA answer was the commuter rail that soon will be RER due to how popular it is.
There will come a point where a several hour long ride on local rail transit is not going to work any longer. Do you want to learn that the hard way, or the easy way?
 

DirectionNorth

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Right now, you are correct in your vision as it stands now.
Let's play a "what if". What if Stage 3 is 100% funded by the province and feds. What if the province and feds asked for what Ottawa wanted next? What if someone suggested this? What if the province and feds funded it 100%?
Hey, look, it gets built.
What gets built after Stage 3 (or should be built) is a network of BRTs that can speed up bus travel time, and *maybe* some urban LRTs.
What if none of that happens? Then the old union station stays what it is. Then the Via station stays what it is. Then the rail lines stays as is.
Which is how it should be.
I have never seen anything except for the subdivisions they want for HFR. Nowhere do they state what the actual changes will be, so my assumptions are they will just increase the type of service they have now. Since the whole HFR is from Toronto to Quebec City, would that mean the Centre station would need to be changed as you would need to back in and out of it? That assumes all trains would run the entire route multiple times.
How many trips go through Montreal? How many through Ottawa? Why would we force a transfer for Toronto-Montreal?
You and I are.
Others on here are as well.
I would not suggest this over other things as those things currently are more important.
When it becomes a priority would be when the highways are in insufferable gridlock and commuter rail is seen as a solution. Then it will be thought of on an official level.
Again, where is the ridership for commuter rail coming from? If a city like Ottawa needs commuter-style rail, then something has gone horribly wrong when it comes to planning.
If that were the case, traffic in the Lower Mainland would be improving. After all, that is their answer.
What are you trying to say? We don't build transit to facilitate car travel ...
The GTA answer was the commuter rail that soon will be RER due to how popular it is.
There will come a point where a several hour long ride on local rail transit is not going to work any longer. Do you want to learn that the hard way, or the easy way?
Who the hell is riding OC Transpo from Orleans to Kanata? Is anyone taking GO from Oshawa to Burlington? Do we build rail lines for ridership (often short-distance) or for theoretical end-to-end trips that are few in practice?
 

micheal_can

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What gets built after Stage 3 (or should be built) is a network of BRTs that can speed up bus travel time, and *maybe* some urban LRTs.

So, after Stage 4?
Or, why can't both be built at the same time?
Look at GO and the other local rail projects like the Ion, HLRT, Crosstown, TYSSE, SSE, FLRT, etc. The idea I have would not be local rail. stops would be spaced out more like GO, or GO RER. There comes a point where having both local and regional rail makes sense. The question is when.

Which is how it should be.

For how long? When Ottawa pulled up its streetcar lines, I am certain most people felt that is the way it should be and stay that way.

How many trips go through Montreal? How many through Ottawa? Why would we force a transfer for Toronto-Montreal?

Currently, it does not appear that Via goes through Ottawa with their trains. They seem to either end or start there for most of them.That means you are forcing a transfer already. Maybe with HFR they will eliminate the transfer, or maybe they will add thru trains and keep these that terminate in Ottawa.

Show me what they have planned for the HFR or your conjecture is just as valid as mine.

Again, where is the ridership for commuter rail coming from? If a city like Ottawa needs commuter-style rail, then something has gone horribly wrong when it comes to planning.

Well, since the city is not in control of the surrounding towns, I would argue that this would not be a fault of planning in Ottawa.

What are you trying to say? We don't build transit to facilitate car travel ...

A reason many politicians try to use it is to reduce gridlock.

Who the hell is riding OC Transpo from Orleans to Kanata? Is anyone taking GO from Oshawa to Burlington? Do we build rail lines for ridership (often short-distance) or for theoretical end-to-end trips that are few in practice?

I'd ask who is commuting to Eastway Gardens? Id bet most aren't, yet that is where the Via station is, and where everyone seems to think would become the commuter rail if it were ever to be started.
 

DirectionNorth

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So, after Stage 4?
Or, why can't both be built at the same time?
Look at GO and the other local rail projects like the Ion, HLRT, Crosstown, TYSSE, SSE, FLRT, etc. The idea I have would not be local rail. stops would be spaced out more like GO, or GO RER. There comes a point where having both local and regional rail makes sense. The question is when.
The question is "why" you seem so eager to spend huge amounts of money on a project with dubious/non-existent benefits.
For how long? When Ottawa pulled up its streetcar lines, I am certain most people felt that is the way it should be and stay that way.
Again, if Ottawa grows to that size, then there has been a massive failure of planning along the way. Rather than obsess over the possibility of that happening, let's prevent those failures in the first place.
Currently, it does not appear that Via goes through Ottawa with their trains. They seem to either end or start there for most of them.That means you are forcing a transfer already. Maybe with HFR they will eliminate the transfer, or maybe they will add thru trains and keep these that terminate in Ottawa.

Show me what they have planned for the HFR or your conjecture is just as valid as mine.
If HFR is built without an Ottawa Bypass, why should trains end in Ottawa? Do they terminate current T-M trains in Kingston? Your lack of common sense is showing here.
Well, since the city is not in control of the surrounding towns, I would argue that this would not be a fault of planning in Ottawa.
Ottawa (along with Halifax) is unique in that it controls the surrounding rural areas.

Even if it wasn't a failure of planning in Ottawa city council, should we (as Ontario taxpayers) be subsidizing exurban lifestyles that don't exist now?
A reason many politicians try to use it is to reduce gridlock.
Politicians say and do many things, but as you (rightly) complain on the VIA thread on SSP, that doesn't make it the correct course of action.
I'd ask who is commuting to Eastway Gardens? Id bet most aren't, yet that is where the Via station is, and where everyone seems to think would become the commuter rail if it were ever to be started.
You're arguing against a transit mode based on a fringe case. And I think you misunderstand (willfully?) the argument against a Union Station, since most of us are against it in that there's no justification for commuter rail in Ottawa, and it's arguably a net negative for VIA. The argument for keeping the current station are these, in this order:
  1. It's cheaper to keep it there
  2. It's cheaper to keep it there
  3. It's cheaper to keep it there
  4. It has good connections to both transit and roads
 

kEiThZ

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Who the hell is riding OC Transpo from Orleans to Kanata?

Not many people other than some public servants and military who work at the Carling Campus and live in Orleans.

But let's say there are people who wanted to do this after Stage 2. Based on the current average speed (37.5 kph) of the Confederation Line, it would take 76 mins from Trim to Moodie. To that add buses on either end.

Any commuter rail proposal will have buses on both ends. But thanks to large gaps in heavy rail coverage, the bus rides will be longer. And thanks to this Union station idea, there's now an extra transfer at Union station. So after all that, the likelihood of substantial time savings are poor.

Just faster, cheaper and easier to bring back the direct buses that used to run from Orleans to Kanata. And that is exactly what Ottawa needs: more buses.
 

ARG1

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I don't get why we're having this complete meltdown over a project that might happen in the far, far future. Like relax people. Should Union Station be reactivated someday? Maybe. Obviously it's a project that shouldn't be in any priority, but if the city grows, and we reactivate many of the cities raillines, then it could be a beneficial spur long term. It's not worth getting this heated over.
 

micheal_can

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The question is "why" you seem so eager to spend huge amounts of money on a project with dubious/non-existent benefits.

I have stated why numerous times.

Again, if Ottawa grows to that size, then there has been a massive failure of planning along the way. Rather than obsess over the possibility of that happening, let's prevent those failures in the first place.

How Is that a failure any more than what is already happening?

If HFR is built without an Ottawa Bypass, why should trains end in Ottawa? Do they terminate current T-M trains in Kingston? Your lack of common sense is showing here.

Your lack of knowledge just popped up.
There are trains that are Toronto-Montreal, all of which do not pass through Ottawa, and at least 1 starts and ends in Kingston.

Ottawa (along with Halifax) is unique in that it controls the surrounding rural areas.

Not in places like Renfrew county Lanark County, United Counties of Prescott and Russell, and United Counties of Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry. They have their own governments and planning that are not dictated by Ottawa.

Even if it wasn't a failure of planning in Ottawa city council, should we (as Ontario taxpayers) be subsidizing exurban lifestyles that don't exist now?

We aready do with GO being expanded more and more. This would be no different.

Politicians say and do many things, but as you (rightly) complain on the VIA thread on SSP, that doesn't make it the correct course of action.

So, tomorrow all politicians are going to stop? If anything them usingit as a way to get it done will benefit everyone since less people will be on the LRT, rediucing the risk of it becoming like the lower U for Toronto's Line 1.Do you really want the LRT between Bayview and Trembley to end up like that? Yes, I know that isn't going to happen any time soon. Doesn't mean something shouldn't be done before it gets that bad. Or, are you someone that thought how the Central Transitway was is a good thing?

You're arguing against a transit mode based on a fringe case. And I think you misunderstand (willfully?) the argument against a Union Station, since most of us are against it in that there's no justification for commuter rail in Ottawa, and it's arguably a net negative for VIA. The argument for keeping the current station are these, in this order:
  1. It's cheaper to keep it there
  2. It's cheaper to keep it there
  3. It's cheaper to keep it there
  4. It has good connections to both transit and roads

And like I have been saying.... right now, you are all correct. There is not much of a demand to make the investment worth it.

Not many people other than some public servants and military who work at the Carling Campus and live in Orleans.

But let's say there are people who wanted to do this after Stage 2. Based on the current average speed (37.5 kph) of the Confederation Line, it would take 76 mins from Trim to Moodie. To that add buses on either end.

Any commuter rail proposal will have buses on both ends. But thanks to large gaps in heavy rail coverage, the bus rides will be longer.
And thanks to this Union station idea, there's now an extra transfer at Union station. So after all that, the likelihood of substantial time savings are poor.

Just faster, cheaper and easier to bring back the direct buses that used to run from Orleans to Kanata.

You assume a few things:
1) that no other stations along the LRT would exist for commuters to get off/on at. That makes no sense.
2) No parking would exist near the commuter rail stations. If we followed the GO model, there is a good chance there would be plenty of parking.

The issue with the buses is that they will be also stuck in the gridlock.Also, they have a top speed of the highways. Trains can and do go faster. GO trains for instance tend to travel at around 120km/hr. In order for buses to the same, the speed limit on the highways must increase.

I don't get why we're having this complete meltdown over a project that might happen in the far, far future. Like relax people. Should Union Station be reactivated someday? Maybe. Obviously it's a project that shouldn't be in any priority, but if the city grows, and we reactivate many of the cities raillines, then it could be a beneficial spur long term. It's not worth getting this heated over.

Probably because they don't have an LRT stop at their door.
 

kEiThZ

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that no other stations along the LRT would exist for commuters to get off/on at.

I never made any such assumption. You must not understand what average operating speed is. The scenario I described is end absolute longest travel from end to end after stage 2. And that's the point. In the absolute worst case scenario, nobody in Ottawa is facing hours long commutes that exist in Toronto and necessitate GO.

No parking would exist near the commuter rail stations. If we followed the GO model, there is a good chance there would be plenty of parking

Parking could be built. But that only makes the cost of this proposed system higher. Virtually every location near all existing rail lines inside Ottawa is developed. And Ottawa is already spending $65k per parking spot for public parking in some areas. A GO sized parking lot at even half the station of a system like what Moose was proposing would render the whole idea unfeasible. Not to mention that it's literally anti-Transit Oriented Development to build an entirely new transit system that is reliant on cars (the actual flaw of GO). But also after all that, what would such a system do? Save a low single digit percentage of riders 10-20 mins?

That same money could literally pay for a partially tunneled Montreal-Rideau LRT. Or half the Bank subway. And both of those would have much higher ridership than some car dependent commuter rail system. I can't imagine most Ottawa residents voting for this.
 

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