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Moose Rail (National Capital Region)

In doing some further reading, Stage 2 got Ottawa Council support in March/April 2017.

This article (http://bit.ly/2u7zufD) provided a timeline for what happens next:

Projected Stage 2 timeline:

  • Begin environmental assessment for Moodie Drive extension: March 2017
  • Release Confederation Line request for qualifications: March 2017
  • Release Trillium Line request for qualifications: March/April 2017
  • Secure funding commitments: May 2017 [I think the federal funding was announced in June but would have to check]
  • Release Confederation Line request for proposals: June 2017
  • Release Trillium Line request for proposals: Q2/Q3 2017
  • Finalize contribution agreements: Q1 2018
  • Contract award: Q2 2018
  • Construction commences: Q3 2018
  • Revenue service Trillium Line: 2021
  • Revenue service Confederation Line East: 2022
  • Revenue service Confederation Line West: 2023
So from the timeline above I assume the Trillium Line will see a RFQ issued right about now. Guess a new Ottawa Council vote would have to come pretty quickly if the plan were to change.
 
I assume the Feds may not appreciate that and could insist the project continues.
Ottawa Council already have announced starts that didn't happen. *Cessation of an existing service* would have to be approved by the CTA, as well as starting one, the permission for which was applied for last year by Moose. It seems the point of this being not only a *federally regulated railway*...and being so, available for "running rights" (as detailed in other forum strings) is being missed. Not to mention Ottawa purposely blocking rightful access to the Prince of Wales bridge, *which is contrary to their own stated wishes*, let alone CTA rulings! Whether Capital Railway builds and improves the line, and adds stations wouldn't affect Moose's legitimacy for use, other than in terms of costs and the line meeting operational standards. Moose using another company's tracks and stations is detailed in the Transportation Act.

Here's a screen grab of the first page of Moose' application:
upload_2017-7-9_22-58-14.png

[...continues...]
https://www.letsgomoose.ca/wp-conte...er_RE_CertificateOfFitness_2016-11-25bPDF.pdf

As to rail vehicles to be used by anyone, it is *Capital Railway* (Trillium) who are using vehicles not normally compliant to TC regs, not Moose' proposal. Moose could cite the exception given to Capital Railway to gain permission for them to use same, but the distance Moose propose to destination would/could make them less suitable for the task. Whatever, as the Law stands, Moose have the right of access and right of running on *any* federally regulated railway if they meet safety requirements, covered under the Railway Safety Act, a whole other discussion.

As to their proposed business model, it's discussed at length on-line and by Potvin and others previously in this string. It does appear to be a bit of a stretch...even a 'loss-leader'...but this isn't to make money, it's like building a private road at a loss to an estate to sell property on it. This was the basis of many railways in the past, most notably the Metropolitan in London, UK in the Thirties, but done in many cities. LIRR, Chicago lines, etc, etc.

Edit to Add: From the Transportation Act:
[...]
Running Rights and Joint Track Usage
Marginal note:Application by railway company
  • 138 (1) A railway company may apply to the Agency for the right to
    • (a) take possession of, use or occupy any land belonging to any other railway company;

    • (b) use the whole or any portion of the right-of-way, tracks, terminals, stations or station grounds of any other railway company; and

    • (c) run and operate its trains over and on any portion of the railway of any other railway company.
  • Marginal note:Application may be granted
    (2) The Agency may grant the right and may make any order and impose any conditions on either railway company respecting the exercise or restriction of the rights as appear just or desirable to the Agency, having regard to the public interest.

  • Marginal note:Compensation
    (3) The railway company shall pay compensation to the other railway company for the right granted and, if they do not agree on the compensation, the Agency may, by order, fix the amount to be paid.
Marginal note:Request for joint or common use of right-of-way
  • 139 (1) The Governor in Council may
    • (a) on the application of a railway company, a municipal government or any other interested person, or on the Governor in Council’s own initiative, and

    • (b) after any investigation that the Governor in Council considers necessary,
    request two or more railway companies to consider the joint or common use of a right-of-way if the Governor in Council is of the opinion that its joint or common use may improve the efficiency and effectiveness of rail transport and would not unduly impair the commercial interests of the companies.

  • Marginal note:Order in Council for joint or common use of right-of-way
    (2) If the Governor in Council is satisfied that significant efficiencies and cost savings would result from joint or common use of the right-of-way by two or more railway companies and would not unduly impair the commercial interests of the companies, the Governor in Council may make any order for the joint or common use of the right-of-way that the Governor in Council considers necessary.

  • Marginal note:Compensation
    (3) The Governor in Council may also, by order, fix the amount of compensation to be paid in respect of the joint or common use of the right-of-way and any related work if the companies do not agree on the amount of that compensation.
    [...]
  • http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-10.4/page-20.html
This particular string is focused on Moose Rail, and the legal relationship with Ottawa, but it's also a microcosm of rail in general in Canada.

There have been some profound SCC decisions testing the various Railway Acts, and some of them appear to conflict (the "diamond" issue, which is occurring again in Ottawa) so Moose' case is more than just about their specifics, it's about rail law in general in this nation.

I'm closely watching this to see how Metrolinx, OBR, Guelph Junction, and the spur from Guelph to Cambridge (formerly CN, present ownership questionable, it's serviced by GEXR) and other lines are impacted as per commuter heavy rail/light rail/LRT use.

Second Edit to Add: As an aside to this discussion, and the section this is from relevant to the Havelock HFR proposal, and noting that Potvin and myself have posted reference to the recurring phrase throughout Cdn rail legislation (And SCC rulings on it) : "for the general advantage of Canada":
[...]
144.1
[...]
  • Declaration that line is for general advantage of Canada
    (2) Whenever a railway company’s rights and obligations under an agreement with VIA Rail Canada Inc. are vested in another person or entity by subsection (1), the portion of the railway line to which the agreement relates is hereby declared, as of the day the transfer takes place, to be a work for the general advantage of Canada.

  • Marginal note Duration of declaration
    (3) The declaration referred to in subsection (2) ceases to have effect if
    • (a) VIA Rail Canada Inc. ceases to operate a passenger rail service on the portion of railway line to which the declaration relates; or

    • (b) the operation of the railway line is discontinued.
    [...]
This is further impacted by a section of the rail sub in discussion being owned by the National Capital Commission. That impacts Capital Railway as much as it does Moose.
 

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Which "starts" did they announce that didn't happen?
I'll reference later, but the now announced Trillium extension was first announced at least once about six years ago.

Btw: An aspect of "double tracking" the line not realized by some posters is the contamination (considerable according to some reports) of the land under the RoW. It's a case of "leave well-enough alone" on that, as to even relay the present track invokes mandatory cleanups, and an expensive one. It will have to be done at some point, and the contamination isn't consistent along the length, so passing loops could/would be the best option for now, and that is being considered.

Again, I've glossed over many reports and plans, and not noted them, there are so many, but Googling for "contamination trillium line ottawa" (or sub "pollution" for "contamination" to get some different hits) takes you to some of the reference. The airport spur is especially problematic, but again, I'm loathe to quantify it without having reference handy.

Edit to Add: Quick Google shows:
[...]
Early extension plans
Main article: O-Train § Early extension plans
In July 2006, Ottawa City Council approved the north-south light rail expansion project. The project would have terminated diesel light rail service on the Trillium Line so as to reuse its right-of-way for a double-track, electric light rail line that would have extended west from the University of Ottawa to Bayview then south to Leitrim and then west to Barrhaven. However. in December, 2006, Ottawa City Council cancelled this project, thus leaving the diesel-powered Trillium Line unchanged.
[...]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trillium_Line

From the "Main article" link just above:
[...]
According to the plan, the line was to be extended east from its current northern terminus to run through LeBreton Flats and downtown Ottawa as far as the University of Ottawa, and south-west from its Greenboro terminus to the growing Riverside South community and Barrhaven. Much of the route would have run through the undeveloped Riverside South area to allow a large new suburb to be constructed in the area south of the airport. The line would not have connected to the airport. Construction of the extension was scheduled to begin in the autumn of 2006, resulting in the shutdown of operations in May 2007, and been completed in autumn 2009 with operations resuming under the new systems and rolling stock.

The diesel-powered Talents would have been replaced with electric trams more suitable for on-street operation in the downtown area, by the Siemens S70 Avanto (due to the ‘design, build, and maintain’ contracting process which has focused upon the bid proposing this vehicle).[3] Other bids had proposed the Bombardier Flexity Swift and a Kinki Sharyo tram.

With the use of electric power, greater frequency, and street-level running in central Ottawa, the expanded system would have borne much more resemblance to the urban tramways usually referred to by the phrase ‘light rail’ than does the pilot project (though the use of the Capital Railway track and additional existing tracks which have been acquired along its route may cause it to remain a mainline railway for legal purposes).
[...]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-Train#Early_extension_plans

The PoW Bridge, IIRC, also had at least one project announced and came to nothing. I'll dig later. Gatineau is still waiting on having signed an agreement for it.

The S70 Siemens, btw, built in California, is available in dual voltage versions (to run on electrified mainlines @ 25kVAC) and 'trolley' lines DC. The San Diego Trolley runs them on *mainline* down to the Mexican border, (albeit @ 750VDC) and on street running, including in tunnel. The SDTrolley is regulated by the FRA on that section of mainline track, and spurs in the city that run freight at night (temporally separated). This is why the terms "LRV" "Light Rail" and "LRT" are vague. The S70, termed an "LRV" in North Am:

[The 70% low floor vehicle design and the maximum speed of 105 km/h make the S70 the comfortable and fast alternative to the car. Besides the vehicle S70 Siemens also provides the Canadian and U.S. market with high floor light rail vehicles.]
Trams and Light Rail - Mobility - Siemens
www.mobility.siemens.com/mobility/global/en/urban.../trams-and-light-rail.aspx

There's quite a few points worthy of discussion that relate to Ottawa, Moose and *Toronto* in many of the points made above.

And this one renders the indignation of some posters on (gist) "Moose looking for subsidies" in a different light:
Much of the route would have run through the undeveloped Riverside South area to allow a large new suburb to be constructed in the area south of the airport.

And that's exactly Moose' cause d'etre...
 
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I'll reference later, but the now announced Trillium extension was first announced at least once about six years ago.

Sorry, I should have clarified. I really meant what starts the current term of Ottawa Council missed. My understanding is that the 2006 LRT plan was different and the current Mayor and Council adopted a different plan, which they now have funding for. In my mind, it's the same as the Scarborough Subway or Finch LRT plans. Both are approved by the current Council and that's the relevant timeline at the moment.

Given the timeline provided in the above article, we can now use that information going forward to monitor this project. As indicated, we should know soon if they've met "Release Trillium Line request for proposals: Q2/Q3 2017" which is the most relevant item for this topic since Moose and Trillium both want to use the same corridor according to this map I did earlier.
 
In my mind, it's the same as the Scarborough Subway or Finch LRT plans. Both are approved by the current Council and that's the relevant timeline at the moment.
Yeah, many cities in many nations have multiples more 'false starts' than actual ones, but Ottawa is not that far behind Toronto in terms of examples, which isn't good. One wonders if much of it isn't the cities' faults, but just a bad hierarchy with the Province. The Municipal Act (and versions of it, like the Toronto Act) really need a radical revamp, but that's for another string. The NCC ostensibly got around that in past (forty years ago), but appears to be complicating things now, just by being another layer of bureaucracy. The much lower calibre of civic (and all) politicians doesn't help.

The current situation will be the one to watch as per 'Moose and Squirrel'....whoops*...'Moose and Ottawa Council' learning to work together as opposed to being in apposition.

*
 
I'm interested in the timing of this. The article I linked to above seemed to suggest the Mayor wants the Stage 2 LRT (which I know understand from reading posts here will use O-Train style rolling stock and not the LRV rolling stock from the Confederation Line) to go out to tender this year.

As per my understanding, Stage 2 for the Trillium Line will use existing rolling stock (DMUs). I am not even sure they are buying more vehicles. But if they do, I can't see them doing anything more than purchasing a few more LINT sets.

So wouldn't that mean the Moose Plan would require an Ottawa City Council vote which would be a switch from the plan I assume they've endorsed? Would it require 2/3rds? Or is Moose counting on the CTA somehow forcing Ottawa Council to go with their plan because they allegedly removed that track near the Bayview Ave improperly?

Moose is trying every legal and regulatory avenue to get the City of Ottawa to play ball. And I think they want money in addition to access. I think they've even taken OC Transpo to the Competition tribunal trying to argue that municipal transit is a monopoly. Well, not just that, they want the governmental authorities to fix up the PoW bridge for them.

I am also curious if this whole thing goes through if the single track corridor has enough capacity to fit MOOSE in with Trillium line rush hour frequencies.

At some point, Ottawa City Council will have a tender out and then approved. I assume then it would become a lot more difficult once shovles are in the ground to stop the project, change it, or run service beside it. Of course if there's a change in the Provincial government that could create an opening for Moose if the PCs pull Provincial funding. I assume the Feds may not appreciate that and could insist the project continues.

Ottawa's Stage 2 is not being cancelled at this point. I am sure the provincial PCs learned their lesson last election when Hudak's refusal to commit to Stage 2 cost them seats in Ottawa. They won't make the same mistake twice. As for MOOSE, we'll find out next election how well they've planned their political donations.
 
My understanding is that the 2006 LRT plan was different and the current Mayor and Council adopted a different plan, which they now have funding for.

The previous proposal was a disaster in the making. Basically was a sop to developers in southern Ottawa and did nothing to address the bulk of transit riders who commute from the East and West into Ottawa, and the major issue in Ottawa which was the unsustainability of the existing BRT system as bus congestion through the downtown core threaten to disrupt the system. In fact, the previously proposed LRT plan only made it worse by mixing LRT and buses on the street through the downtown core. The public was rightfully furious that council was proposing hundreds of millions investment that didn't actually serve any riders and didn't do anything to solve major issues of concern. And it was not the current mayor who pushed this plan. It was his predecessor (Larry O'Brien) who ran on a promise to cancel the old plan (pushed by Bob Chiarelli) . Check out the spanking that Chiarelli got in the 2006 election:

Ottawa_municipal_election,_2006

Crushed by a businessman who hadn't run for office before.

This is what my return commute looked like:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/sports/Transpo+backed+Slater+Street/3362828/story.html

No congestion? 25 min commute. With congestion? 45-60 minutes. The LRT will reduce that same commute to 20 minutes.

The Confederation Line proposal is so effective (because of the downtown tunnel pushed by O'Brien) that it will eliminate 94% of buses (over 1600 buses a day) on some corridors and around two thirds on the major BRT corridor streets:

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...-bus-loops-through-ottawa-under-post-lrt-plan

Those bus cuts also save OC Transpo between $14-15 million per year.

All that because they focused on actually building LRT to riders in the East and West who use transit heavily today.

ps. Riverside South (which the old LRT plan was supposed to serve) has developed exactly as predicted. Another car-dependent suburb. It's why the Trillium Line can serve them and still be single-tracked. What's particularly curious though is why MOOSE is banking on riders from Riverside South when the Trillium Line will serve them just fine (and probably with a lower fare).

pps. Before anybody thinks this is some massive suburb, Riverside South is around 15k residents today and will hit 50k at full buildout 20 years from now. There are bus routes with larger catchment in Toronto.
 
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Ottawa's current LRT strategy does appear to be a sensible plan and well worth proceeding with. What is conspicuous is the lack of a Regional overlay.... and an apparently headstrong Ottawa administration that has no time for one. It makes me think of TTC vs 905 in past years. I know enough people who live across the river but work in Ottawa - I can't imagine that an integrated plan wouldn't address their needs. I have also done the Arnprior-Ottawa commute and while the density is certainly below urban standards, that highway is filling up. So regional rail is not a fantasy and would draw ridership similar to the pre-GO CN-era commuter trains to say Stouffville and Guelph.

It's a more complicated overlay, given there are two provinces involved, and given the regulatory regime which treats heavy rail and transit in separate jurisdictions with little interest in a hybrid that bridges the two, despite less than heavy rail being the current reality and the likely best solution for the future. TC really ought to be prodded into finding a better solution for this - there are multiple settings beyond the Trillium line that need this....K-W, potentially Brampton-Orangeville, and maybe some day RER/DRL.

I have no firm opinion to offer on any of it, other than to observe that Moose seems to be stepping into a breach that good government ought to have covered, and no one else seems to be up to the task. If, in fact, this kind of private consortium can achieve what government can't or won't, some of my small-l liberal core beliefs about the role of the state are certainly going to get rethought.

- Paul
 
Ottawa's current LRT strategy does appear to be a sensible plan and well worth proceeding with. What is conspicuous is the lack of a Regional overlay.... and an apparently headstrong Ottawa administration that has no time for one. It makes me think of TTC vs 905 in past years. I know enough people who live across the river but work in Ottawa - I can't imagine that an integrated plan wouldn't address their needs. I have also done the Arnprior-Ottawa commute and while the density is certainly below urban standards, that highway is filling up. So regional rail is not a fantasy and would draw ridership similar to the pre-GO CN-era commuter trains to say Stouffville and Guelph.

It's a more complicated overlay, given there are two provinces involved, and given the regulatory regime which treats heavy rail and transit in separate jurisdictions with little interest in a hybrid that bridges the two, despite less than heavy rail being the current reality and the likely best solution for the future. TC really ought to be prodded into finding a better solution for this - there are multiple settings beyond the Trillium line that need this....K-W, potentially Brampton-Orangeville, and maybe some day RER/DRL.

I have no firm opinion to offer on any of it, other than to observe that Moose seems to be stepping into a breach that good government ought to have covered, and no one else seems to be up to the task. If, in fact, this kind of private consortium can achieve what government can't or won't, some of my small-l liberal core beliefs about the role of the state are certainly going to get rethought.

- Paul

Thanks for the comments Paul. Helpful overview and perspective. Learned a lot.
 
given the regulatory regime which treats heavy rail and transit in separate jurisdictions with little interest in a hybrid that bridges the two
I'm still unable to locate the actual terms TC 'holds' OC-Transpo to as per Capital Railway, and where that jurisdiction starts and stops. This is part of my referring to Potvin dealing with a "moving target". How do you address rulings and regulations in legal undertakings when those rulings or 'understandings' aren't available for examination?

given the regulatory regime which treats heavy rail and transit in separate jurisdictions with little interest in a hybrid that bridges the two, despite less than heavy rail being the current reality and the likely best solution for the future. TC really ought to be prodded into finding a better solution for this - there are multiple settings beyond the Trillium line that need this....K-W, potentially Brampton-Orangeville, and maybe some day RER/DRL.
Absolutely! That Moose is a private undertaking doesn't diminish an iota that the *template* has to be elucidated, and Ottawa is lagging even the US lagging Europe and the RoW.

I have no firm opinion to offer on any of it, other than to observe that Moose seems to be stepping into a breach that good government ought to have covered, and no one else seems to be up to the task. If, in fact, this kind of private consortium can achieve what government can't or won't, some of my small-l liberal core beliefs about the role of the state are certainly going to get rethought.
Again, absolutely:
"Moose seems to be stepping into a breach that good government ought to have covered". Whether Potvin's assertions are borne out in favourable tribunal/court decisions or not is only part of the point here.

It's the fact that he's *testing them*, and a lot more need to be tested, and given a researched and presented case before them, the CTA has ruled what TC themselves should have made clear and enforced decades ago.

Even if one doesn't believe in the Moose Business Plan, Potvin is to be applauded for forcing the CTA to clarify and enforce where TC has failed.
 
Ottawa's current LRT strategy does appear to be a sensible plan and well worth proceeding with. What is conspicuous is the lack of a Regional overlay

Does Ottawa need a regional overlay? Have a look at the map of the City of Ottawa's geographic boundaries. It's massive. And plenty empty. Why the heck should there a be focus on regional service at this point?

To put this in the context of the GTA, this would be like saying the City of Toronto has a transit plan that lacks a regional overlay because there's no plan to provide transit to Coburg.

.... and an apparently headstrong Ottawa administration that has no time for one. I

1) Because ratepayers like me don't want that.

2) Because regional transport is outside their mandate. Just as GO services are outside the City of Toronto's mandate.

It makes me think of TTC vs 905 in past years.

Ottawa is in a vastly better position. The suburban belt is all part of City of Ottawa. As a result after Stage 2, 70% of Ottawa residents will be within 5km of an RT (mostly the light metro as LRT they have going on) station. How many decades will it be before the GTA achieves such coverage?

It's remarkable. In 10 years, Ottawa will have gone from being behind Toronto to substantially ahead of the GTA in rapid transit coverage of its population.
 
I have no firm opinion to offer on any of it, other than to observe that Moose seems to be stepping into a breach that good government ought to have covered,

Moose's entire schtick is something called "land value capture". I have severe doubts about that in the context of exurban development. This is not a build it and they will come. They are hoping that regional services will make those towns developable. Why anybody thinks this deserves any sort of government support is beyond me. Especially when Ottawa itself is still stunningly rural as a major metro.
 
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Does Ottawa need a regional overlay? Have a look at the map of the City of Ottawa's geographic boundaries. It's massive. And plenty empty. Why the heck should there a be focus on regional service at this point?

To put this in the context of the GTA, this would be like saying the City of Toronto has a transit plan that lacks a regional overlay because there's no plan to provide transit to Coburg.

Aylmer-Gatineau-Hull has a commuting population. Getting some form of LRT across the river has been acknowledged as a need (later). I'm not sure where their voice goes in this.

Moose's entire schtick is something called "land value capture". I have severe doubts about that in the context of exurban development. This is not a build it and they will come. They are hoping that regional services will make those towns developable. Why anybody thinks this deserves any sort of government support is beyond me. Especially when Ottawa itself is still stunning rural as a major metro.

The development is going to happen anyways, unless there is a Places to Grow type prohibition on development with a green belt. (Maybe there is? I'm not that clear on the overall growth strategy for the Ottawa area). I did some work up in the Arnprior-Renfrew area a few years back. There are certainly commuters up there, and property is being marketed as commuter enabled. If the urban plan opposes this, great - surely someone would have said so? That Moose is still pushing suggests an absence of a position on that.

Like I said, my concept of good government is small-L liberal..... ie we rely on government to figure these things out and take action to put what's needed in place. I can see how developers and small-town business people might prefer to kick in for this kind of infrastructure privately: if you come from the view that money paid to government is subject to waste, you would rather handle it yourself than pay hefty development charges. It's certainly against the grain for how urban planning works in most of Ontario.

It sure seems that sorting this out in front of a rail regulator who works to rules that exclude some of the technology, and has no jurisdiction over the urban plan, is not very functional. I'm not suggesting Metrolinx v.2 (shudder) but there must be a better place for this to bubble up to for resolution.

Look at how the traditional TTC rules and thinking have constrained transit across the City of Toronto boundaries....hopefully Ottawa doesn't make the same mistakes.

- Paul
 
Aylmer-Gatineau-Hull has a commuting population. Getting some form of LRT across the river has been acknowledged as a need (later). I'm not sure where their voice goes in this.
In fact there is an existing 'understanding' if not official agreement with them that is not being honoured by Ottawa Council at this time, and it involves bringing the PoW bridge into operation to achieve it.

What Keithz expounds is the vacuum that Moose is predicating its future on! Potvin has already challenged Ottawa Council to work with him and share the track. That must be really upsetting for some folks who apparently want no-one to have rail to serve their outlying communities. Because he's a "taxpayer"! Lordy, Lord.

Ony in Canada you say? Pity...

I was just studying Berne, Switzerland's magnificent regional rail system the last few nights. Line speed gets up to 140 kph, double decker emu trains. In fact there's a video on-line of one of the branches: (A Fribourg to Bern non-stop express)
Awesome Train Journey in Switzerland (Europe) | Train Cab Ride View
Philip Marshall
  • 7 months ago
  • 64,227 views
Population of Bern? 400,000 people metropolitan area. Ottawa? 1.4M
(The Bern agglomeration, which includes 36 municipalities, had a population of 406,900 in 2014. )

Fribourg? 40,000. (For comparison, Guelph is 130,000)

Is it any wonder we have abject transportation problems in this nation?
 
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