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Moose Rail (National Capital Region)

We need to keep reminding ourselves that Ottawa, unlike Bern and most other western cities, no longer has a railway running to, much less through, its core. The VIA tracks are 2 miles from Parliament Hill, and from Trillium line 1.5. And those tracks run out to a series of small towns that are dwarfed in population by Kanata, Orleans, and Barrhaven. Why would that be Ottawa's first priority, with the Ontario disinterested and Quebec semi-hostile?

The mayor who pulled the plug on the 2006 LRT put together a task force whose report proposed a system with a tunnel linking the existing rail lines through a tunnel, with dual-mode trains.

upload_2017-7-11_17-37-29.png


The tunnel idea got kept, but the use of the existing rail lines to this extent was deemed unworkable pretty quickly, and the later stage, converting the transitway to LRT and putting it through a tunnel, quickly became the focus, because that's what most everyone in Ottawa wanted, and it was the original plan.

Once you start looking at the logistics of it, the chances of heavy rail returning to downtown Ottawa any time soon seem slim to none. It would cost billions and more or less replicate to some extent the path of the Confederation line but carry many fewer riders. There could be a role for a modest regional service, but I think it will have to grow out of VIA's service between Smith's Falls and Alexandria, and gradually pushing the Trillium line into the Quebec side. Connections to the light rail system will have to serve for the "last mile" into the core, possibly through arranging empty LRT trains to meet full regional ones at Bayview and Tremblay (it would be pretty easy to connect the LRT up with the northernmost track at Union).
 

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Once you start looking at the logistics of it, the chances of heavy rail returning to downtown Ottawa any time soon seem slim to none.
How do you define "downtown"? The Trillium and Confederation lines are completely separate, and there is no intention to run "heavy rail" back into the core. See article end of this post.

It would cost billions and more or less replicate to some extent the path of the Confederation line but carry many fewer riders.
I'm puzzled by how that's getting mistaken for what the City itself is proposing for the Trillium Line, which, technically, is "Heavy Rail" (being Federally regulated as per Capital Railway) even though being run as "Light Rail".

gradually pushing the Trillium line into the Quebec side.
But this is the point of discussion! Ottawa itself has blocked that route. That's not my view, not Potvin's, but the Law according to the Cdn Transport Agency, who've ruled that the City is in violation of 'instructions' they issued on Potvin's behalf years back. They were clearly warned! A councillor is on record (I've supplied reference prior) as also stating Council was fully aware of the 'notice' (warning) from the CTA.

As for Gatineau:
Gatineau mayor mulls LRT connection to Ottawa
Plan for cross-border public transit likely more than a decade away.
ottawa-prince-of-wales-bridge.jpg.size.xxlarge.promo.jpg

Metro file

Most proposed connections to Gatineau have proposed using the Prince of Wales Bridge.

By: Dylan C. Robertson For Metro Published on Tue Jan 03 2017
Gatineau’s mayor says a Light Rail Transit line could connect both sides of the Ottawa River.

In a year-end interview with Radio-Canada, Mayor Maxime Pedneaud -Jobin said the biggest problem faced by the Société de transport de l'Outaouais (STO) is poor transit connections with the Aylmer district.

"There are studies that have been done for the future high-speed link, whether it’s an LRT, bus, all that. We are doing this and we are moving towards a solution," Pedneaud -Jobin said.

He noted this could be achieved through a proposal by Hull-Aylmer MP Greg Fergus for an LRT that extends Ottawa’s existing O-Train over the decommissioned Prince of Wales railway bridge.

Last month, Ottawa South MP David McGuinty told Metro that regional MPs meet regularly to discuss ideas like an interprovincial LRT. “The river just isn’t that wide,” he said.

But the only environmental assessment for a possible LRT extension that Ottawa has announced involves Kanata, which wouldn’t start construction until 2031.
http://www.metronews.ca/news/ottawa/2017/01/03/gatineau-mayor-mulls-lrt-connection-to-ottawa.html

There's a lot more online, and Potvin has linked many pieces to make the case for Moose, and also the case for Law as it's written. The CTA agrees on some major points!

I'll try and dig (again) the rulings of the CTA on this. For now, here's the first six hits on Google:
Transportation agency demands explanation on ... - Ottawa Citizen
ottawacitizen.com › News › Local News
Jun 8, 2017 - The Prince of Wales Bridge spanns the Ottawa River near Lemieux Island. ... the city for not keeping the bridge up to snuff by complaining to the CTA. ... rail system, including the Trillium Line and Confederation Line LRT.
City baffled by agency's questions about railway and Prince of Wales ...
www.ottawasun.com/.../city-baffled-by-agencys-questions-about-railway-and-prince-...
Jun 28, 2017 - Fenced off defunct Prince of Wales Bridge. The CTA says the City of Ottawa may have breached its duty as a rail line owner when it dismantled ... Still, the diesel-train Trillium line has always had a terminus at Bayview station.
CTA tells city to explain why it has dismantled Prince of Wales bridge link
ottawaconstructionnews.com/.../cta-tells-city-to-explain-why-it-has-dismantled-prince-...
Jun 9, 2017 - The Prince of Wales bridge -- the key link in MOOSE's regional commuter rail proposal ... Agency (CTA) has asked the City of Ottawa to explain why it has dismantled ... Line/Trillium Station, near the currently disused city-owned Prince of ... If there is a violation of railway rules, we have the audacity and the ...
Private/public infrastructure conflict: MOOSE appeals to CTA for Prince ...
ottawaconstructionnews.com/.../privatepublic-infrastructure-conflict-moose-appeals-to...
Sep 25, 2016 - A view (from MOOSE) of the track the railway group says Ottawa ... The Prince of Wales bridge -- the key link in MOOSE's regional commuter rail proposal ... CTA sets notification rules and limitations on corridor owners tearing ... In his letter, Moser said the city is complying with CTA regulations regarding the ...
Ottawa outlines timeline/process for restoring rail link across the city ...
www.cadcr.com/ottawa-outlines-timelineprocess-for-restoring-rail-link-across-the-city...
Jul 2, 2017 - The unused Prince of Wales Bridge between Ottawa and Quebec ... way inconsistent” with the CTA's rules regarding railway discontinuance.
[PDF]Page 1 6ttawa Office of the City Clerk and Solicitor Bureau du greffier ...
https://www.letsgomoose.ca/.../Letter-to-CTA-re-Ottawa-River-Line-Show-Cause-Resp...
Jun 28, 2017 - Email: SecretariatGotc-cta.gc.ca ... Discontinuance Rules unless and until it has confirmed its intention to ... Inc. regarding possible future use of the ORL and PoW Bridge; ... active passenger rail Service between Ottawa and Gatineau on the ORL. ... Prince of Wales Bridge, to inform the next update to the ...
 
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From almost a year ago...how can *anybody* connected to Ottawa Council claim they didn't know about this? (And the concerns were first raised four years ago)
Private/public infrastructure conflict: MOOSE appeals to CTA for Prince of Wales bridge track access

By
CNGRP September 25, 2016

The organizers of a proposed privately-owned commuter rail network linking 16 eastern Ontario and western Quebec municipalities have appealed to the Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) because they say the City of Ottawa dug up about 250 metres of federally regulated rail line as it constructs the Bayview Light Rail Transit (LRT) station.

MOOSE Consortium director general Joseph Potvin says the currently disused rail line is a vital link in the existing interprovincial rail network to the city-owned Prince of Wales Bridge connecting Ottawa and the Outaouais – which MOOSE believes is the linchpin for its commercial commuter rail concept.

MOOSE says it wants to build the rail system without any public subsidies or funding as the first new Canadian metropolitan passenger railway company in 125 years. (It has submitted its development application to the CTA and is awaiting the go-ahead decision.) MOOSE plans to earn revenue by charging fees for station stops to owners and invest in communities linked by the rail system, who would see their property values increase if the system is put into operation.

Potvin says the MOOSE concept depends on reliable enforcement of federal railway laws and regulations, which allow rail services to use tracks owned by other railway owners, and that CTA sets notification rules and limitations on corridor owners tearing up or restricting access to tracks.

MOOSE says it has provided engineering details and offered to pay the estimated $50 million costs to repair and update the Prince of Wales bridge from its own financing arrangements. This work would include the addition of pedestrian and cycling paths/walkways.

MOOSE would compensate the city (at commercial lease rates) for the usage of the city-owned rail tracks. The consortium would apply the funds that would be used to pay these lease rates to recoup its investments in the bridge upgrade.
However, the Bayview Station track issue is a different problem, Potvin says.

“MOOSE is asking the federal regulator (the CTA) to order the city to cover the ‘replacement cost’ of reconnecting the main line track that the city has instructed its contractors to dismantle without authorization from that federal regulator,” he said. “And since the city has also instructed its contractors to build a permanent barrier to interprovincial traffic and trade on the corridor, the next least cost option would be to construct a literal work-around.”

“MOOSE’s civil engineering member firm REMISZ Consulting Engineers has prepared, and MOOSE has submitted to the regulator and the city, one preliminary drawing of a possible least-cost work-around which involves two short underpasses,” he said.

Potvin says the MOOSE solution would not interfere with the construction schedule for the LRT Bayview Station. However, he is hopeful the city will accommodate some modifications to the station design to allow for efficient interconnections between the MOOSE interprovincial 400 km system and the city’s local 20 km LRT operations.

Engineer Wojciech Remisz says he anticipates “the whole damage they (the city) did by closing the track, and now have to fix, would cost between $10 and $15 million.”

Potvin said he had expected the CTA to release its decision by Sept. 21, but he received a call from Leslie Siegman, the CTA’s director, monitoring and compliance, asking for more time as “the issues are both complex and important.”

“He assured me they take the matter very seriously, and that they appreciate the urgency of getting a prompt decision,” Potvin said.

The city has been cautious in commenting on the MOOSE proposal as it fends off other requests for public access to the rail bridge, proposals to rip out the tracks and turn it into a pure pedestrian walkway/cycling path, and ideas for a light rail commuter link with Quebec.

“The city believes it is premature to be making any firm commitments at this time,” John Manconi, general manager, transportation services, said in a statement. “The city is neither supporting nor opposing the MOOSE plans and, subject to reasonable protocols and understandings being established, intends to reasonably accommodate future requests for information and meetings by MOOSE, when warranted.”

In an earlier April letter to Potvin, then acting deputy city manager John Moser wrote: “I do wish to also be clear in confirming that the city at this point considers that there is insufficient financial and technical operating backing or support for the MOOSE plan for the city to consider it anything more than a speculative venture at this stage.

“I respect your confidence, ambition and the passion you have for your plan, but the city has to act responsibly as a municipal authority according to the facts it has in deciding how much time and resources it can dedicate in responding to your various requests.”

In his letter, Moser said the city is complying with CTA regulations regarding the rail line and it “continues to retain the ORL (Ottawa River Line) corridor and rail infrastructure for future railway use.

“The city’s plans for a pedestrian and cycling pathway (including temporary removal of track) are not inconsistent with possible future railway use for the ORL corridor,” Moser wrote. “The city has considered a number of future transit alignments for the ORL corridor that take into account current developments and plans. The city has definitely not made a decision to formally or officially discontinue the ORL and is confident in the flexibility that it has in accommodating its future transit plans for this corridor – however they may evolve.”

view-tracks.jpg
“Accordingly the city continues to be in full compliance with federal railway legislation relating to the discontinuances of railway lines and with the 2012 CTA Order regarding the confirmation of the city’s plans in its publicly filed Three Year Operating Plan,” Moser wrote.

“If you (MOOSE) continue to make incorrect or misleading public statements regarding these matters, the city’s willingness to accommodate information and meeting requests will substantially diminish and the city may feel compelled to proceed with a formal complaint to the CTA or take other actions to protect the city’s reputation against any further misleading statements,” Moser wrote in the April letter to Potvin.

In an emailed note, Potvin wrote that MOOSE disputes the contentions in Moser’s April letter. “MOOSE has officially asked the CTA to determine whether the city has ‘knowingly (made) any false or misleading statement or knowingly provide false or misleading information to the agency’,” Potvin wrote.
http://ottawaconstructionnews.com/l...-cta-for-prince-of-wales-bridge-track-access/

And we now know how the CTA ruled, and it wasn't for the City...This is a bit of inverted logic as per the Deux Montagnes line issue in Montreal and REM...where also (and I may have to clarify this later) VIA could/should/would if they had the legal status, take REM to court (which might be the CTA), albeit the action might have to be undertaken by AMT, problematic as Quebec politocos are getting dragged around by their own tails (in the front)....Certainly we see evidence that the CTA will only act when they have to rule on a case. And Potvin is forcing that.

Edit to Add: Reference to the "Councillor" prior post:
[...]
It's also left the city councillor for the area wanting answers from the city's legal team.

"How did we get to this point, where it looks to me like a key permission from the government to move ahead with construction was somehow missed?" asked Kitchissippi councillor Jeff Leiper on Thursday. [...] Making matters worse, the CTA says information it's received suggests the city has built permanent structures on top of the old railway line. Neither action is allowed without first notifying the CTA, which the agency says didn't happen. [...]
City ordered to explain actions
On Wednesday, the CTA told the city it has until June 28, 2017 to show cause, explaining how the city's actions weren't a breach of duty.

In an email Thursday, city solicitor Rick O'Connor said staff are reviewing the matter and will prepare a response to the CTA in a timely manner.

"As this is a regulatory hearing process, the City will not offer further comments at this time," wrote O'Connor.

In addition to his own question to the city solicitor, Leiper said he'll be asking city planning staff to clarify the long-term plan for the Prince of Wales bridge, which he sees one day as an important commuter rail, cycling and pedestrian connection between Ottawa and Gatineau.

In March, city council directed Ottawa mayor Jim Watson to begin formal discussions with the mayor of Gatineau on how to get the bridge back into operation.

"I'm confident that the city is going to be able to go back to the agency, demonstrate that it has a plan for putting rail back on the bridge, and that the engineering is possible," said Leiper. [...]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/rail-line-breach-of-duty-city-ottawa-1.4151285

Btw: Moose' new partner: (Cue the outraged "I'm a taxpayer" poster. When do you get it?)

upload_2017-7-11_22-53-4.png

http://leminegroup.com/
 

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I don't think a lot of posters understand the potential at play here, not least the poster complaining of (gist) "my tax-dollars going to subsidize this fantasy".
upload_2017-7-11_23-9-10.png

https://www.letsgomoose.ca/wp-conte...sortiaNA-MooseConsortium_2017-07-01aPDF-1.pdf

I trust I don't have to explain "PPP"?

The file is attached. I think posters should read it. This is about far more than just Ottawa. "Investment Bank" ring any bells folks? It's not just "pension funds" buying in. It's even deeper pockets...
Mar 13, 2017 @ 11:27 PM 8,613
Chinese Now The Largest Group Of Foreign Investors In U.S. Commercial Real Estate
Chinese investors were the single largest group of foreign investors in commercial real estate in the U.S. last year, with deal volumes reaching a record high of $19.2 billion, up 10% from $17.3 billion in 2015, according to a new report from Cushman & Wakefield. Chinese investment made up about 29% of total foreign investment in U.S. commercial real estate, ahead of Canada, the second largest foreign investor, which invested $13.1 billion.

In a rush to diversify holdings and hedge against a slowing economy and depreciating yuan, Chinese investors have sought better returns overseas and become an important driver in U.S. commercial real estate. Much of their investment in the sector has been through mega deals. Most transactions in 2016, 62% to be exact, were over $1 billion. [...]
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ellens...s-in-u-s-commercial-real-estate/#7d3989737419

Perhaps Desjardins-Siciliano hasn't been consulting widely enough as per the HFR project?

From Bill Curry, the Globe's point man on the Infrastructure Bank and VIA's HFR project.
Bill Curry
OTTAWA — The Globe and Mail
Published Tuesday, Apr. 19, 2016 8:17PM EDT

A team of Chinese engineers is endorsing a planned rail line to Northern Ontario’s Ring of Fire and says the project could open the door to Chinese bids on other Canadian rail projects.

If approved, the planned $2-billion rail line to the Ring of Fire mineral deposits would mark the first time that a Chinese rail company plays a major role in rail construction in Canada. China’s state-owned rail companies are aggressively eyeing international expansion, particularly in the area of high-speed commuter rail.
[...]
The institute has worked on major long-distance railways across China, as well as subway projects.

The engineers expect to complete a detailed feasibility study on the rail project within four months that would then be presented to Chinese financial institutions.

China has made major investments in high-speed rail domestically in an effort to tackle pollution and congestion and is now looking to export that expertise.

A Chinese state-owned rail company is currently involved in a planned high-speed rail line that would connect Las Vegas to California’s rail grid.

In Canada, the Ontario government is currently studying how to deliver on a pledge to bring high-speed rail to the Toronto-Windsor corridor.

“Chinese railway construction has had rapid growth and the government encourages all the Chinese enterprises to go and seek more opportunities to develop. So this project could be a very good start for Chinese companies, especially Chinese railway companies, both in construction and design and consulting services to go to Ontario and Canada,” said Mr. Zhu.
[...]
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...on-rail-line-to-ring-of-fire/article29684695/

Subsequently, the Ring of Fire went 'lame' (as to why is a discussion in itself)...but the venture capital and interest in rail persists.

Oh, and that poor aggrieved, complaining "taxpayer subsidy" poster? Here's for you:
[NDP MP Charlie Angus...criticized Ontario’s cuts to provincially owned Ontario Northland, including the 2012 cancellation of the Northlander train that connected Toronto to Cochrane, Ont.

“Why are we having the Chinese government doing the job that really should be the job of the Canadian and provincial governments?” he asked.]
Oh the irony, smelted irony or otherwise to test your rusting mettle.

But there's still a lot of intrigue (and keep Lemine's investment in mind reading this):
The Canadian Press
July 7, 2017

OTTAWA — The Trudeau government’s efforts to draw in foreign cash to help fund big infrastructure projects in Canada will likely find little interest from China’s deep-pocketed investors, the country’s envoy to Ottawa says.

Ambassador Lu Shaye told The Canadian Press he doesn’t think Chinese investors will want to endure what he described as lengthy regulatory processes required for Canadian infrastructure.

They would probably prefer to continue funnelling their investment dollars into regions with far fewer procedural hurdles, such as East Africa, he said.

“I think it is not easy to build large-scale infrastructure in Canada — I’m afraid that Chinese investors lack patience with this process,” Lu said through an interpreter in an interview at the Chinese embassy.

“They’re afraid that it would take too long to build large-scale infrastructure in Canada.”

To lure more foreign investment into Canada, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his Liberal government have pitched the country to international investors as a stable place with a skilled workforce.

The government is working on a new federal agency dedicated to attracting foreign investment — the so-called Invest in Canada Hub. It also plans to build a sales force to promote Canada abroad and to hire more trade commissioners in order to focus on pulling in investment from strategic markets.

Infrastructure is key to the Liberals’ long-term strategy to lift the economy and to create jobs. They have committed more than $180 billion for new projects, like bridges, railways and transit systems, over the next 11 years.

As part of the federal push to boost infrastructure investments, Ottawa is also establishing a $35-billion infrastructure bank to use public funds as a way to leverage billions more from private investors to pay for new, large-scale projects.

In exchange for their financial commitments, private investors would reap steady, predictable monetary benefits such as user fees or tolls.
[...]
Lu brought up an example to make his point: a recent proposal to build high-speed rail corridor between Toronto and Windsor, Ont.

The rail line would stretch nearly 400 kilometres and aims to be fully operational in 2031, a time frame that includes construction and regulatory processes such as environmental assessments. Its estimated cost is $20 billion.

In comparison, Lu said, a recently completed Kenyan railway between Nairobi and Mombasa — mostly funded by China — took fewer than three years to build, from the planning stage to finish. He added that the project also included the construction of nine new stations along the 480-kilometre line.[...]
http://business.financialpost.com/b...nvoy/wcm/9e1237a1-2c65-49b4-85c3-a3177b025a49

Seems Moose is plodding along quite nicely...

How's that government cash coming along there folks? Time for another proclamation from Il Duce, the Minister of Provincial and Vaughan Riding Announcements? I have far more faith in off-shore investors at this point in time. Provincially and Federally.
 

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Getting some form of LRT across the river has been acknowledged as a need (later).

Gatineau has their own BRT system now with routes that cross over to Ottawa. Is it ideal? No (also beyond stupid that they chose BRT knowing full well that Ottawa was transitioning to LRT...but that's a whole other discussion). But unless the provinces can agree on a unified regional authority, resolution is a long ways away. Look at a map, the ideal isn't just the Trillium Line crossing over on the PoW. It's replacing Gatineau's BRT corridor with the Trillium Line. This is not going to happen in my lifetime for a whole bunch of reasons having to do with inter-provincial politics.

The development is going to happen anyways

No it isn't. They need the train for the development. Ottawa has enough land inside the city limits to keep building subdivisions till all of us here are 6 feet under. There's simply no reason to support ex-urban development in the Ottawa Valley unless you're a real estate speculator.

There's not even any real bus service today from most of these places. If there were enough commuters you'd see that. Like you do in the East from places like Rockland.

I did some work up in the Arnprior-Renfrew area a few years back. There are certainly commuters up there,

Just like there are commuters from Coburg and Belleville and Niagara. Nobody thinks they should be a priority for the City of Toronto itself. And certainly nobody would think it normal to insist for example that GO give access to private investors who want to run trains to their far-flung developments. And it would considered beyond absurd if those same investors insisted that the City of Toronto fix up track to make this service happen.

Like I said, my concept of good government is small-L liberal..... ie we rely on government to figure these things out and take action to put what's needed in place. I can see how developers and small-town business people might prefer to kick in for this kind of infrastructure privately

Government has figured it out. That's why government isn't putting a penny in on this. It's bad enough they allowed LRT to go outside the greenbelt (the original conception was to push growth inside the greenbelt by keeping transit focused there). It'd be an utter disaster to completely upend all their growth plans and facilitate the growth of exurbs (they aren't real exurbs today...too few commuters).

What going on here isn't developers and small town business people paying for their own infrastructure. If they wanted to do that, they'd be subsidizing commuter bus services today. This is is developers trying to create large value for their developments by getting governments to build a rail line right to their developments. Luckily for the taxpayer, Sorabara is not one of the realtors this time.....

It sure seems that sorting this out in front of a rail regulator

Seems to me that they are desperately trying to get the City (and the province and feds) to build up the infrastructure for them. On one hand, force investment by regulator order (CTA). On the other compel the competition tribunal to mandate that they be allowed to use the infrastructure after the city, province and feds spend tens or hundreds of millions.

I have my doubts that competitions tribunal is that dumb. But I could be wrong.

On a personal level, what grinds my gears about Moose isn't a handful of my tax dollars going to it. It's the implications for sprawl. Ottawa has an incredible opportunity to densify in the coming years. LRT is forcing an urban renaissance on the city. MOOSE ,if successful would basically undo substantial portions of that progress. The extension of the LRT outside the greenbelt, already means we'll start seeing more sprawl as commuters take advantage of time savings of LRT to move further away. Give them commuter rail and we'll have them living on one acre lots 50-60km away. Why should that be supported? Particularly with taxpayer dollars when it really runs against sound development principles and taxpayer interests. Thankfully, I think this whole thing isn't getting much traction without serious leverage from at least the province. And I haven't seen any indication that Queen's Park is taking this seriously at all.
 
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What will be most interesting here is not the CTA ruling (the city is clearly in breach). What is interesting to see if they get access to the track. The CTA thus far has only mandated that the City should maintain the track as per their legal obligations. There's no obligation to give MOOSE access, especially if Ottawa and Gatineau have plans for the bridge. And without the bridge, MOOSE is up the creek without the proverbial paddle.

Hence this appeal:

https://www.letsgomoose.ca/wp-conte...licationForAWrittenOpinion_2016-06-29_PDF.pdf

That, of course, has massive implications for transit authorities all over the country. I imagine the TTC will be mighty pissed if they are forced to drop their monopoly on transit services inside the City of Toronto. It'll get really interesting if GO and TTC can also be compelled to give private operators track access.
 
The mayor who pulled the plug on the 2006 LRT put together a task force whose report proposed a system with a tunnel linking the existing rail lines through a tunnel, with dual-mode trains.

Completely forgot about that plan! Even though I attended a presentation on it.

And those tracks run out to a series of small towns that are dwarfed in population by Kanata, Orleans, and Barrhaven.

Yeah. Nobody here seems to get the context. The existing suburbs would be utterly livid if Carp and Alexandria and Wakefield got priority over them, given the massive difference in both population and transit ridership. This is an area that already voted out a mayor who tried to cater to developers and cost the oppositions seats in the last election when they didn't support LRT enough. And people think they'll tolerate an insistence that Ottawa shell out $50 mil for a bridge to improve service to Wakefield? Who knows, maybe the Province and the Feds foot the bill entirely.

Why would that be Ottawa's first priority, with the Ontario disinterested and Quebec semi-hostile?

The dynamics here seem particularly interesting in the context of the deal to keep a third of federal jobs on the Quebec side. MOOSE, ironically, doesn't do anything for them since it bypasses downtown Gatineau substantially. I can't see Quebec being anything but outright hostile to this.

Once you start looking at the logistics of it, the chances of heavy rail returning to downtown Ottawa any time soon seem slim to none. I

The most puzzling part about Moose's proposal. After all that travel, you end up needing to transfer on to LRT outside downtown.
 
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The most puzzling part about Moose's proposal. After all that travel, you end up needing to transfer on to LRT outside downtown.

This is indeed the weakest link. The reality is that railway lines in Ottawa may come from the right places but they don't end up in the right place. And anyone thinking that the tracks will ever come back downtown is fantasizing.

- paul
 
This is indeed the weakest link. The reality is that railway lines in Ottawa may come from the right places but they don't end up in the right place. And anyone thinking that the tracks will ever come back downtown is fantasizing.

- paul
Except that's exactly what OC Transpo is doing itself. Does GO Rail come to mid-town Toronto? I believe it should, but that's a whole other discussion.
 
This is indeed the weakest link.

There are several weak links in their proposal. How do they get around the single track Trillium Line? Even after the refurbishment, the line will have just enough sidings to make Trillium's DMU services run. I am skeptical the line will have enough extra capacity to accommodate MOOSE.

Where they dump passengers is an issue though. And it's probably why commuter bus services haven't taken off from these exurbs unlike what what you see with the eastern exurbs which have great bus services to Ottawa (Clarence-Rockland) comes to mind. Heck, they partner with OC Transpo, get Transitway access and use OC Transpo bus stations. Why aren't there any such services from most of the Moose catchment area? Diffuse employment. Most of those commuting from the Western exurbs are probably spread between Kanata, Nepean, Bell's Corners and the downtown core. I am struggling to see how MOOSE would help them.... Especially if their employer is not near an LRT station.

This is why, to me, this is a real estate play disguised as a transit proposal. They got land in those parts. And they need the rail lines to make it work. This is quite similar to what happened with the first LRT proposal. Developers lobbied hard back then too. Unless, regulators force the city and various rail line owners to give them access and fix up the infrastructure, is looking like a similar fate too.
 
This is why, to me, this is a real estate play disguised as a transit proposal. They got land in those parts. And they need the rail lines to make it work. This is quite similar to what happened with the first LRT proposal. Developers lobbied hard back then too. Unless, regulators force the city and various rail line owners to give them access and fix up the infrastructure, is looking like a similar fate too.

Not just rail lines. I suspect there are investors in those smaller communities who bought up land years ago figuring, it's dirt cheap now, but Ottawa will find us one day. And now the developers are ready to move in, but they aren't offering the big bucks for the land because there will be city-sized development charges to pay. And everybody is asking, do we really need to pay that money? Where will it go? And Moose is saying, we can cut down the development charges because if we have Moose, government won't have to build highways, and if (as you suspect) some other level of government can be coopted to pay into Moose, even that investment will come cheap.

I wonder if there is a Moose equivalent for sewer and water investments. Most of those little towns think of water supply as equating to "the water tower". That infrastructure needs upgrading. There is education also, but it can be fobbed off on the Province.

So yeah, I can believe that it's a development caper. All the same, if the devlopment can't be stopped, we will have to plan transportation to that broader urban area. The 417 is going to fill up, and who wants to see more highway investment?

- Paul
 
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The dynamics here seem particularly interesting in the context of the deal to keep a third of federal jobs on the Quebec side. MOOSE, ironically, doesn't do anything for them since it bypasses downtown Gatineau substantially. I can't see Quebec being anything but outright hostile to this.

My preferred plan is actually to build a N-S tunnel. It would begin with an upgraded RapiBus (RapiRail?) line on the Quebec side, run through Place du Portage, over a diagonal bridge over the Ottawa River, then under Bank St to McLoed, turn east past the Museum of Nature, then turn southward again, surfacing south of the Pretoria Bridge in a redesigned Queen Elizabeth Dr, past Lansdowne, and then back under the Canal to meet the current Trillium Line at Carleton.

The Trillium Line track north of this junction would become part of a V-shaped line, with the Bayview-Confederation track forming the west leg, and an upgrade of the Southeast Transitway from Heron to Hurdman forming the east leg.

This would allow airport-bound trains to travel directly into downtown (instead of the weird 2 transfer thing that would be required under the current plan), and would eliminate the forced transfer at Bayview for N-S passengers. It would also turn Parliament Station into the primary hub in downtown.
 
The 417 is going to fill up, and who wants to see more highway investment?

The 417 has just seen a massive amount of expansion in Ottawa to provide the extra lanes necessary to tide them over through LRT construction.

In the East:

http://www.ligneconfederationline.ca/the-build/417-widening/overview/

In the West:

https://news.ontario.ca/moi/en/2016...support-safer-and-more-efficient-driving.html

Extending lanes further out will be cheap if necessary now that the bottlenecks are being removed. There is in fact, enough highway capacity being built up to last for decades to come. Especially after 2023, with Stage 2 taking lots of cars off the highway inside the Greenbelt.

Not just rail lines. I suspect there are investors in those smaller communities who bought up land years ago figuring, it's dirt cheap now, but Ottawa will find us one day. And now the developers are ready to move in, but they aren't offering the big bucks for the land because there will be city-sized development charges to pay. And everybody is asking, do we really need to pay that money? Where will it go? And Moose is saying, we can cut down the development charges because if we have Moose, government won't have to build highways, and if (as you suspect) some other level of government can be coopted to pay into Moose, even that investment will come cheap.

I don't think the highways are an issue. Falls in the province's lap. They'll build them if necessary. The issue is commute time. There's no really good way to make an Arnprior to Ottawa commute palatable to most people.

MOOSE has also really gotten screwed by the Stage 2 LRT happening so quickly. I think they were banking on commuting from the West being a pain for a long time to come. Stage 2 has basically taken a lot of the wind out of their sails. With 70% of residents being within 5km of an LRT station and most of Western Ottawa falling to within 15-20 min of a park ride maximum, all of MOOSE's intermediate stations are taking a hit with Stage 2. How many riders are they going to get from Barrhaven when they can change at Baseline or how much from Bells Corners when they will have Moodie station a mere 5-10 mins away?

Look at MOOSE's map:

https://www.letsgomoose.ca/wp-content/uploads/Moose_Map-Postercs7.pdf

Effectively, the intermediate stations have to be built only as drop off points for their ex-urban commuters. They won't be picking up many Ottawa riders after Stage 2. Especially since MOOSE won't actually get you downtown and you're probably going to be transferring to the LRT at Bayview or Tremblay. In fact, a cursory look at a map, says it makes more sense to have commuter buses feeding the LRT terminuses at Moodie, Baseline and Trim Rd in 2023 than to proceed with MOOSE. But of course, that wouldn't really help with selling real estate in Chelsea and Arnprior.

Hopefully the Competition Tribunal tells MOOSE to take a hike and we can put developer driven transit fantasies behind us and start talking to Queen's Park to actually start providing GO Bus equivalent services to these communities.
 
My preferred plan is actually to build a N-S tunnel. It would begin with an upgraded RapiBus (RapiRail?) line on the Quebec side, run through Place du Portage, over a diagonal bridge over the Ottawa River, then under Bank St to McLoed, turn east past the Museum of Nature, then turn southward again, surfacing south of the Pretoria Bridge in a redesigned Queen Elizabeth Dr, past Lansdowne, and then back under the Canal to meet the current Trillium Line at Carleton.

If only dreams could get funding. The fundamental issue in the region is that Ottawa and Gatineau chose different solutions and have different transit authorities. It is ridiculous. But not sure what the solution is, given various thorny issues with Quebec. It's pretty obvious to me that it would been ideal to have one LRT line running from Leitrim (or now Riverside South) right to Lacrosse connecting across the PoW bridge at Alexander Tache.

This would allow airport-bound trains to travel directly into downtown (instead of the weird 2 transfer thing that would be required under the current plan), and would eliminate the forced transfer at Bayview for N-S passengers.

Why two transfers? You get on at the airport and transfer at Bayview after 2023. Heck, they could have eliminated the transfer by interlining services if they had gone with twin tracks and electrification. Instead they went with single tracks and DMU. So we have the transfer at Bayview. But who knows, if there's enough ridership, maybe in the 20230s, they can push for LRT conversion.
 
Since it is not germane to MOOSE and thus off topic, is anyone aware of a good thread/resource to look at for the airport link part of Trillium Line?
 

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