Montréal Transit Developments

[nfitz]

What's the total estimated cost for this extension?

$4.5 billion for 5 stations and 5.1 kilometres. Almost $900 million a kilometre.

 

[Streety McCarface]

$4.5 billion for 5 stations and 5.1 kilometres. Almost $900 million a kilometre.

So even more expensive than the middle estimations for the relief line, and Toronto can't seem to get their sh!t together? Kudos to Montreal.

 

[nfitz]

So even more expensive than the middle estimations for the relief line, and Toronto can't seem to get their sh!t together? Kudos to Montreal.

Given that this was announced about 40 years ago, and shovels still aren't in the ground, I'm not sure it's the best example of a city having it's act together. Go back and look at the first post in this thread, ten years ago, that also announced these 5 stations (at $150 million a kilometre) along with another 15 km and a dozen stations, which have also no proceeded.

 

[CityStay]

Given that this was announced about 40 years ago, and shovels still aren't in the ground, I'm not sure it's the best example of a city having it's act together. Go back and look at the first post in this thread, ten years ago, that also announced these 5 stations (at $150 million a kilometre) along with another 15 km and a dozen stations, which have also no proceeded.

You mean the page where people were lamenting the fact that the DRL wouldn't open until 2020? Is that the page you're talking about?

 

[Steve X]

So even more expensive than the middle estimations for the relief line, and Toronto can't seem to get their sh!t together? Kudos to Montreal.

Nah Montreal isn't that city. They built less than us in the last 2 decades.

 

[nfitz]

You mean the page where people were lamenting the fact that the DRL wouldn't open until 2020? Is that the page you're talking about?

This post here ... the first page in this thread.

Montréal Transit Developments

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites/regional/montreal/200905/24/01-859418-un-pacte-a-trois-pour-prolonger-le-metro.php I couldn't find an article in english. To summarize things, The mayors of Laval, Longueuil and Montreal are negotiating an agreement to submit an expansion plan of the...

urbantoronto.ca

 

[Hopkins123]

Nah Montreal isn't that city. They built less than us in the last 2 decades.

It's not who starts the race, it how the race finishes. Montreal inevitably walking away with over 200km of fully grade separated rapid transit if all of REM and Metro expansion pans out, will prove that in the end Montrealers are far more effective negotiaters for funding than Toronto has ever been. Apart from the York University Stn, TYSSE largely is a dud and doesn't bode well for securing funding for future expansions of the subway network.

 

[Hopkins123]

$4.5 billion for 5 stations and 5.1 kilometres. Almost $900 million a kilometre.

DRL will almost definitely exceed $1 billion per kilometre. Nothing's cheap anymore anywhere.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

It's not who starts the race, it how the race finishes. Montreal inevitably walking away with over 200km of fully grade separated rapid transit if all of REM and Metro expansion pans out, will prove that in the end Montrealers are far more effective negotiaters for funding than Toronto has ever been. Apart from the York University Stn, TYSSE largely is a dud and doesn't bode well for securing funding for future expansions of the subway network.

Thank you for saying this. Other then York University and Finch West, the stations are empty most of the time, especially the York Region one. I'm especially disappointed in Pioneer Village (Steeles West), it should have been a well used station. Yet York Region will get another subway. Let's hope the Richmond Hill extension turns out better.

 

[macookie]

The only thing the Richmond Hill extension will do... is clog the rest of the system... good luck getting on the Yonge Line after Eglinton after the LRT dumps more passengers... the DRL needs to get built ASAP.

Thank you for saying this. Other then York University and Finch West, the stations are empty most of the time, especially the York Region one. I'm especially disappointed in Pioneer Village (Steeles West), it should have been a well used station. Yet York Region will get another subway. Let's hope the Richmond Hill extension turns out better.

 

[nfitz]

Apart from the York University Stn, TYSSE largely is a dud and doesn't bode well for securing funding for future expansions of the subway network.

Since that announcement over 10 years ago of 15-20 new Metro stations and 20 km of tunnels, Toronto has also started 30 km of work on Line 5 and Line 6, in addition to the 9-km Line 1 extension that opened in 2017. Outside of the subway network, other rapid-transit work in the region has been built,, such as the 23-km Union Pearson express, and the 18-km Mississauga Transitway.

 

[robmausser]

What's the total estimated cost for this extension?

$4 billion

 

[CityStay]

I always chuckle when people talk about "Line 5, Line 6" as it leads

Since that announcement over 10 years ago of 15-20 new Metro stations and 20 km of tunnels, Toronto has also started 30 km of work on Line 5 and Line 6, in addition to the 9-km Line 1 extension that opened in 2017. Outside of the subway network, other rapid-transit work in the region has been built,, such as the 23-km Union Pearson express, and the 18-km Mississauga Transitway.

I always chuckle when people talk about "Line 5, Line 6" as it leads those who are unfamiliar with the situation to believe that Line 3 and Line 4 are legitimate lines and not the laughable wee linettes that they actually are.

And what happens in 2030-2040-something when (if) "Line 3" disappears and becomes part of Line 2? Will Line 6 or UPS become Line 3?

And will every line be using a different make/model of transit vehicle? (save Linette 4 which isn't really much of a Line) This would seem to be a parts and maintenance nightmare.

 

[jje1000]

From SSP- a backgrounder on the REM. Ultimately- keeping politicking out of decision making, pushing the project through cycles of optimization and piggy-backing onto larger infrastructural projects/utilizing existing infrastructures better. I bet you if they had to build a new tunnel through Mount Royal or a bridge across the St. Lawrence, REM would probably be a far less fantastic deal than it is now- credit to the Quebec Liberals.

I can make a short story.

In 2014, AMT studies showed that the LRT would be more expensive then buses on the new Champlain Bridge. It was the opposite for the West Island part. This was a political football as the government didn't want to finance either projects.

Old Québec premier, Couillard, visited the SkyTrain in Vancouver and thought it was a great way to come back from the Airport and it would be great for Montréal. He was flabergasted to learn that the CDPQ couldn't even build such things in its own province. Thus Sabia suggested Couillard to create a new CDPQi infra which would look into the feasibility of such projects.
During 2015, the CDPQi infra studied the 2 requests from the QC government on what would eventually become the REM :
- West Island LRT
- South Shore LRT.

Through cost optimisations, in April 2016, CDPQi announced the Réseau Électrique Métropolitain.

For the average operating costs of subsidy per km of a given user in the Montréal Metropolitain Aera, the CDPQi could build, finance and operate it. For those who find the subsidy for the REM to be high, it is what the average is in the region, and that for operating costs only. The REM is not only a good deal in rapidity of execution but also for costs.

Buses operating costs are about 0.99$ per km per user and trains full subsidy of about 1.21$ for the worse lines. It thus made financial sense to remove the entire Deux-Montagne line (even if it was the most profitable line).

Projects analysis for LRT ususally don't include all operating and financing costs (i.e. Ontario LRT projects), plus other metrics are usually includes, such as impacts on gentrification etc.

When the REM went to the BAPE, it was criticised for not having the full information (it still hasn't). Basically the BAPE is not the Pape (Pope) was the answer by the politicians. It was hard for environnementalist groups to grasp that a project was going ahead without their approval. Such groups are pro streetcars and went to court and then superior court. The judgements was lapidating towards these groups.

Other cost optimisations were necessary with the construction consortia, and at a time, Sabia had even given hope. The REM is one of the first projects to be build/design/finance/own and the CDPQi wants to export that to other countries (New-Zealand being one)

The February 2018 version of the project, Réseau Express Métropolitain was born when the financial aspects were secured. The ARTM was mandated to discuss (read, coerced by the QC government) with the CDPQi for the charges per user per km.

Thus the CDPQi owns the REM at nearly 70% and the QC government for the remainder. Operations are in the train contract and it will be Alstom and its partners. The Mont-Royal tunnel and railtracks are owned by another CDPQ entity and not CDPQi.

The ARTM is in charge of putting the payment system for the REM and all fares are being done by that entity.

The price is low because of optimizations, no financing required, and other ownership of major strucutures (mainly tunnel and Champlain bridge). There is also a ARTM construction charge for new buildings or new renovations on buildings near REM stations. That is common in Asia.

This is the first time that a transit project was utterly optimize to have the most cost effective solution. In the last months, the QC government asked the CDPQi instead of the planning arm, ARTM, to study 3 projects:
- REM extension to Laval
- REM extension to Chambly
- REM/LRT project from Downtown to CÉGEP Marie-Victorin/Pointe-aux-Trembles.

It removes most of the lazy politics from transit, which is amazing by itself.

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Couillard and Sabia had proposed a partnership for new transit lines in Toronto, but the Wynne governement refused, stating they they prefer to own their transit lines.

Ironically, a private group proposed to finance and build a Québec city toy-metro (like Rennes), but the pro streetcar folks won that transit project for their city, with even less information about the project than the REM.

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[nfitz]

I always chuckle when people talk about "Line 5, Line 6" as it leads those who are unfamiliar with the situation to believe that Line 3 and Line 4 are legitimate lines and not the laughable wee linettes that they actually are.

Uh ... they are subway line numbers. Montreal doesn't have a Line 3 ... Pearson doesn't have a terminal 2. Should that stop people talking about Terminal 3?

We've talked about Montreal's 3-station Yellow line already, without discussions about whether it's a line or a linette(!?!?).

And what happens in 2030-2040-something when (if) "Line 3" disappears and becomes part of Line 2? Will Line 6 or UPS become Line 3?

And will every line be using a different make/model of transit vehicle? (save Linette 4 which isn't really much of a Line) This would seem to be a parts and maintenance nightmare.

? Most subway systems use different types of equipment on different lines. Many London lines have equipment that won't fit on other lines. Montreal's Line 3 was planned as steel-wheel from the original 1961 announcement, with the others being rubber-tired (also in the original 1961 announcement). I'm really not sure how this is relevant to the announcement.