Montréal Transit Developments

[nfitz]

FWIW, here are the metro passenger demand numbers quoted in the REM ridership study. Looks like it needs to be multiplied by two to get the actual ridership figure.

If you multiply it by two then it would exceed the Toronto ridership - and the APTA data says that Toronto has higher ridership (now that Toronto started providing the correct data). On the other hand, it does seem low.I am surprised Yellow is so low. It must have very low off-peak ridership compared to the other lines, given how crowded it can be at peak. It's certainly more comparable to TTC's Line 4 than I thought.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Okay, I've been doing some number crunching, and the one thing I have to say is that Montreal's numbers are absolute trash. For instance, last quarter of 2018 quoted weekday ridership of 1,367,200 passengers per weekday, but when I referenced old ridership numbers, I got estimates closer to 1,600,000 passengers per weekday (annual ridership divided by 300 and 310, Saturday and Sunday typically each have 1/2 the ridership of a weekday). The average number of riders per day (not weekday) is 1,344,896. This leads to 2 possible explanations:
1. Montreal is bullshitting their numbers or their terms, and the average daily ridership is being quoted, not average weekday ridership
2. Weekday ridership has declined by 17% over the past 6-12 years (every station's ridership is quoted from a different year).

I'm more inclined to believe it's the former, especially with those new weekday riderships @nephersir7 provided (thank you).
Montreal counts passengers through system entrances, which makes sense for line totals, but it makes no sense when trying to calculate the number of passengers using a station. For station counts, the TTC uses entrances and exits, and divides the sum of all platform counts by two to get a line's total ridership. I honestly have no idea what Montreal is doing here, but my best guess is that they're summing up all station entrances but either not including transfer stations in the count, or dividing the riders at a transfer station by some constant and summing up all the ridership on a line. At this point, my best guess is that it's the latter. This explains the Yellow line's surprisingly small ridership — Most people at Berri-UQAM are NOT transferring between the Orange and Green lines, the majority are transferring to the Yellow line. My best guess is that the Yellow Line's ridership is closer to 50,000 passengers per day (sum of the other two stations multiplied by 2 to account for the counter direction).

More analysis later, but I have to get back to work.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Here are the summations. I have to make some adjustments to the data before I can release the spreadsheet.

 

[Streety McCarface]

 

[nfitz]

Okay, I've been doing some number crunching, and the one thing I have to say is that Montreal's numbers are absolute trash

To be fair, some of Toronto's data is equally questionable. The data is limited. For years TTC was under-reporting data to APTA because they were erroneously using linked rather than unlinked trips on the subway. And then when you look at individual data sets, stuff just doesn't add up. For example, the 2018 ridership numbers, suggest that with the six new Spadina stations appearing for the first time, that Sheppard West ridership actually went up, despite no longer being a terminus, and having a lot less buses than it used to. Reality is clearly that the Sheppard West number is from sometime in 2017 that predates the opening of the other six stations. And then look at Line 4 ridership for some years, where the line ridership went up, but the only station count that significantly changed was one of the termini - meaning that all the new trips were starting and ending at the same place!

 

[Streety McCarface]

To be fair, some of Toronto's data is equally questionable. The data is limited. For years TTC was under-reporting data to APTA because they were erroneously using linked rather than unlinked trips on the subway. And then when you look at individual data sets, stuff just doesn't add up. For example, the 2018 ridership numbers, suggest that with the six new Spadina stations appearing for the first time, that Sheppard West ridership actually went up, despite no longer being a terminus, and having a lot less buses than it used to. Reality is clearly that the Sheppard West number is from sometime in 2017 that predates the opening of the other six stations. And then look at Line 4 ridership for some years, where the line ridership went up, but the only station count that significantly changed was one of the termini - meaning that all the new trips were starting and ending at the same place!

Oh, the TTC isn't much better. SEPTA and the CTA's data, on the other hand, is a dream to work with.

Lol, I remember seeing that issue when the TYSSE data came out.

Nevertheless, at least the TTC does ridership counts annually (for the most part, the big transfer stations are done bi-annually) and releases the data to the public on a normal basis. Wish they still did that with the surface transit routes as well. Regardless, the TTC's is without a doubt, the best data in Canada. You can actually do correlations and use the data without the worry of there being an insane margin of error.

 

[nfitz]

Regardless, the TTC's is without a doubt, the best data in Canada.

I've not looked much, but the Translink data used to be much more granular for surface routes.

 

[felix123]

Photo credit: Rocco via mtlurb.com

Barriers are up on McGill College Ave. for station/walkway excavation at McGill Station.

 

[Hopkins123]

^ Kudos to Montreal, for accomplishing more in 2 years than we have in the past 2 decades.

 

[nfitz]

^ Kudos to Montreal, for accomplishing more in 2 years than we have in the past 2 decades.

Oh good grief. The construction of the southern portion of the REM planning began about 20 years ago. Construction itself started more than 2 years ago!

And the central portion was announced around October 1961.

Yes, it's an interesting plan, with finally some major progress. But let's not pretend it's been done in 2 years, and forget that Toronto has opened significant rapid transit already in the last 5 years (let alone 20) with the Mississauga Transitway, UP Express, and Line 1 extension. With 30 km more under construction with Line 5 to open in 26 months and Line 6 in 2023.

 

[CityStay]

Oh good grief. The construction of the southern portion of the REM planning began about 20 years ago. Construction itself started more than 2 years ago!

And the central portion was announced around October 1961.

Yes, it's an interesting plan, with finally some major progress. But let's not pretend it's been done in 2 years, and forget that Toronto has opened significant rapid transit already in the last 5 years (let alone 20) with the Mississauga Transitway, UP Express, and Line 1 extension. With 30 km more under construction with Line 5 to open in 26 months and Line 6 in 2023.

REM planning began 20 years ago? The central portion was announced in 1961?

You are hilarious! Keep it going!

Maybe we'll meet up on the DRL some day!!

 

[SFO-YYZ]

Oh good grief. The construction of the southern portion of the REM planning began about 20 years ago. Construction itself started more than 2 years ago!

And the central portion was announced around October 1961.

Yes, it's an interesting plan, with finally some major progress. But let's not pretend it's been done in 2 years, and forget that Toronto has opened significant rapid transit already in the last 5 years (let alone 20) with the Mississauga Transitway, UP Express, and Line 1 extension. With 30 km more under construction with Line 5 to open in 26 months and Line 6 in 2023.

Gotta love TTC's branding of Crosstown and Finchwest as "Line 5 and Line 6" as if they are equivalent to Lines 1 and 2. Reminds me of a recent interview with Mayor Tory, and he jokingly admitted that "we really only have 3 subway lines, 3 and a half if you are being generous" with everybody laughing in the room.

Waiting to see your average joe's reactions when the "Line 6" opens and they realize it's actually glorified streetcar line (LRT) and not subway that people are used to calling when referring to lines by their number.

 

[nfitz]

REM planning began 20 years ago?

Nearly 20 years ago as LRT - of course the origins of the project go back even earlier. We had a discussion about some of this back in December. See this detailed 2007 report, the alignment is virtually unchanged south of the river, and the current alignment from their to Central is one of the options shown. The report notes the origins as bus lanes in the 1970s, leading to a monorail by 1999, with the switch to the current LRT scheme in 2000 - almost 20 years ago! If you go back to the old AMT website, there are detailed discussions there as far back as 2002 - this has hardly been a secret!

The central portion was announced in 1961?

I'm really amazed just how little knowledge there is about the history here. The alignment and station locations are virtually unchanged (including McGill and the Blue line transfer station at Vincent d'Indy - though of course without the Blue line)) from 1961 proposed steel-wheel Line C (aka Metro Line 3,) other than losing the Cartierville and the Ahuntsic stub. Have you not seen the famous picture of Jean Drapeau in 1961 standing in front of the map? See the 1961 station list here - https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligne_3_(métro_de_Montréal)#Liste_des_stations_projetées

The 1961 announcement, was the start of the study ... it was to announce the start of construction a few months later, with a 1966 opening. One would assume there's a lot older reports discussing planning ... so when I say 60 years in the planning, it's really 60 years since construction was announced

Amusingly the 1961 media reports, talk about how they'd be talking about building the Metro since before 1910 (see page 9 of the October 21, 1961 La Presse). I'm not sure which line this is - perhaps we should say 110 years in the planning!

You are hilarious!

What is hilarious is some believe that Montreal dreamed up these plans in 2 years. LOL!

Gosh, they even show a future line along the CPR out to NDG towards Lachine ... that would be this latest Pink Line tramway maybe?

 

[junctionist]

Gotta love TTC's branding of Crosstown and Finchwest as "Line 5 and Line 6" as if they are equivalent to Lines 1 and 2. Reminds me of a recent interview with Mayor Tory, and he jokingly admitted that "we really only have 3 subway lines, 3 and a half if you are being generous" with everybody laughing in the room.

Waiting to see your average joe's reactions when the "Line 6" opens and they realize it's actually glorified streetcar line (LRT) and not subway that people are used to calling when referring to lines by their number.

While I don't think they're going to be glorified streetcars, I agree that they won't be on the same level as the subway lines. Full grade separation will always be a level higher on the hierarchy of transit infrastructure, no matter if it's underground or above ground.

Perhaps the "Line 5" and "Line 6" monikers will eventually be dropped, like how the "Harbourfront LRT" used to appear on the subway map before they removed it.

 

[felix123]

Oh good grief. The construction of the southern portion of the REM planning began about 20 years ago. Construction itself started more than 2 years ago!

And the central portion was announced around October 1961.

Yes, it's an interesting plan, with finally some major progress. But let's not pretend it's been done in 2 years, and forget that Toronto has opened significant rapid transit already in the last 5 years (let alone 20) with the Mississauga Transitway, UP Express, and Line 1 extension. With 30 km more under construction with Line 5 to open in 26 months and Line 6 in 2023.

LOL. Every damn time. Like clockwork haha ?