Metrolinx Unveils Next Wave of Big Move Projects

[TheTigerMaster]

110 is too cheap for a regional pass.. Considering a GO pass is 330, maybe meet in the middle for 200

Perhaps allow Metropasses for unlimited travel within the city. Have an unlimited regional pass for $200 and full unlimited for $330?

Anyone else want to throw numbers at the wall?

 

[nfitz]

Perhaps allow Metropasses for unlimited travel within the city. Have an unlimited regional pass for $200 and full unlimited for $330?

This is how Montreal works. A regular STM bus/metro pass is $77 a month. For the commuter trains, they have zones 1 to 8. Zone 1 covers most of the metro on the Island, and a full pass including bus/metro/trains is $87 a month. Zone 2 covers much of the rest of the Island, and is $102 (still only $77 for just bus/metro). Zone 3 covers the remaining island, Laval, Brossard, Longeuil, and Boucherville (i.e. most commuters), and is $121. Then passes go up to $239 in Zone 8.

Now, you can get just a train pass, instead of including all the buses, but you only save $13 for zone 1 ($74 vs $87) and $18 for zone 3 ($103 vs $121). With a cash fare of $3 a ride, it's hard to imagine most would get a bus/train/metro pass.

 

[TOareaFan]

The problem with this is the relative unpredictability of the GO system. Someone in Scarborough cannot simply walk to Kennedy GO station and know that they'll be able to pick up a train in a few minutes. What I think Metrolinx should do is increase train frequency within Toronto and surrounding areas to something that is somewhat frequent. I think that once every 15 to 20 minutes all day would be good. Then implement full integration with TTC, so someone could theoretically take a bus to Kennedy GO and ride the train downtown on a single fair. Finally add stations at Danforth and DRL and call it a day.

I understand that Union Station probably won't be able to handle this. But that is no excuse for not fully utilizing the rail corridors in the city. We're lucky to live in a city that has so many well positioned rail corridos. We should be using them to their full potential.

I just don't know why fare integration (of the type I suggest) needs to wait until you get all (or any) of the GO lines to 15 - 20 minute frequencies. What is the harm of doing it now? What is the cost? If you board GO and leave GO in the same municipality, Presto treats it as a local transit fare (heck they can even send the money to the local agency) if you cross a municipal border you have used regional/inter-city transit and GO charges their normal fares.

The current level of GO schedules is such that it will be that big of a deal.....yes, it will mean knowing/consulting schedules.....but so what? If no one finds it helpful, no one will use and the cost is nothing......if it takes 100 people a day away from Y-B station is that not good? If it takes 10 cars a day off the roads is that not good?......considering the no cost nature of the move......who cares?

 

[Electrify]

Perhaps including GO into the regional transit authorities' express fares could work. For example, with the TTC it costs an extra $2.65 on top of your current fare to take the downtown express buses. In York Region to take 407 express buses (and perhaps express branches of other routes, not too sure) it costs an extra 50 cents on top of the current fare. Essentially make these fares the cost to ride GO services within a specific zone.

Perhaps we should also consider these fares for all day limited-stop lines as well, such as Zum, Viva, subway, etc to help raise revenue. On the other hand, according to thebigmove.ca, increasing transit fares apparently would do little to help pay for transit.

 

[gweed123]

Perhaps including GO into the regional transit authorities' express fares could work. For example, with the TTC it costs an extra $2.65 on top of your current fare to take the downtown express buses. In York Region to take 407 express buses (and perhaps express branches of other routes, not too sure) it costs an extra 50 cents on top of the current fare. Essentially make these fares the cost to ride GO services within a specific zone.

Perhaps we should also consider these fares for all day limited-stop lines as well, such as Zum, Viva, subway, etc to help raise revenue. On the other hand, according to thebigmove.ca, increasing transit fares apparently would do little to help pay for transit.

What I'd like to see (and I've outlined it on here before) is this:

-Entire region divided up into fare zones
-A single base fare of $3
-Local transit routes use only the base fare, regardless of distance travelled
-An extra $1 for each additional zone travelled via local rapid transit (LRT, subway, BRT)
-An extra $1.50 for each additional zone travelled via express rapid transit (GO REX, express buses, express BRT like the 407 Transitway)

But you're right, fares need to be more closely tied to both the type of transit used (local, rapid, express), as well as the distance travelled.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I just don't know why fare integration (of the type I suggest) needs to wait until you get all (or any) of the GO lines to 15 - 20 minute frequencies. What is the harm of doing it now?

I was concerned about encouraging too many people ride GO rail before there are increased headways. The last thing GO needs is for hundreds of passengers to be boarding at Kennedy in the middle of rush hour.

I really wish GO had some more subway-like cars, with accommodations for standing persons that could operate with frequent headways. They would be perfect for quickly moving large masses of people into the downtown core.

 

[Evening]

Some one above proposed fare zones for the region which is great but it harms people who use services like Zum that go outside of a municipality. It also harms people who travel within the 905 because as of right now, the 905 (when local agencies are concerned) is like one big fare zone.

I'll give it a shot and propose a few changes I think can make the fare system in the GTHA more easier to navigate:

1) Metrolinx should create four uniform payment options for the region's local transit: (1) cash fare, (2) PRESTO e-purse fare, (3) PRESTO agency monthly pass, (4) PRESTO regional monthly pass; the fare categories should also be uniform (I would suggest: child, regular, senior only to further maintain simiplicity)

2) The prices should be set by Metrolinx and should be uniform accross the GTA

3) All these fares should come with an automatic transfer so that transfers to other local transit agencies can happen smoothly (this is obviously not necessary for the regional monthly pass). These transfers should be accepted on any agency anywhere. I, however, doubt the funding will come to make up the money from eliminating the double fare for the TTC. If money can't be found, they should keep the double fare for the TTC but make the rest of the local system into essentially one gigantic fare zone.

4) The zone upgrades for YRT, the express bus surcharges, loyalty programs, paying local fare on GO buses in regions like Durham, day passes (though these could be reintroduced after the new system is matured) all should be eliminated to maintain simplicity

These changes should fully integrate the local transit agencies' fare structures and allow for easier rules for prospective transit users to understand.

When it comes to GO things get more tricky but this is what I suggest.

1) GO should continue distance based fares -- though possibly being more transparent about how these fares are calulated because I still don't understand the zone system I hear about. Why not just simply a per km fare based on the usual routing of the route?

2) GO should also only have cash fares, PRESTO e-purse, and PRESTO monthly pass (no regional monthly pass because that would be waaaaaay too expensive) and have the same fare categories as the local agencies

3) GO should reduce the co-fare down to zero and this co-fare should apply to TTC as well (this will take money but would make taking GO ALOT more attractive). The co-fare should only be applied for PRESTO users -- the current plethera of rules governing using the cash cofare I think is too confusing to follow and its just better to avoid all that by using the PRESTO card to benefit regular transit users.

4) The transfer windows for GO and local agencies should be same (again for simplicity sake). 2 1/2 hours seems OK to me.


With all these changes we get a fully integrated local transit fare system and a regional transit fare system that works well with local transit. If TTC can be fully integrated into this (i.e. eliminating the double fare) it would be perfect but even without that this, it would be really helpful and clear up alot of the confusion with transit fares in the region.

 

[Electrify]

I was concerned about encouraging too many people ride GO rail before there are increased headways. The last thing GO needs is for hundreds of passengers to be boarding at Kennedy in the middle of rush hour.

I really wish GO had some more subway-like cars, with accommodations for standing persons that could operate with frequent headways. They would be perfect for quickly moving large masses of people into the downtown core.

We used to.
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/gotransit/2508.shtml

 

[ssiguy2]

A simple zone system would be far easier to implement if the GTHA didn't have a such a dizzying array of transit providers.
Ham, Tor,Peel, Halton, York, GO, and Durham are the only transit systems that should be operating.

The GO system is effectively useless to Torontonians because it is just too damn expensive. Most cities would give their left nut to have the commuter rail system capabilities of Toronto. GO is a decnt commuter rail provider and it's higher all day frequencies has certainly made it a more appealing option for those along the Lakeshore in Peel, Halton, Ham, and Durham but it's still too expensive for Torontonians.

If GO in Toronto was part of the standard fare system ridership on the system would soar which I thought was the whole point of The Big Move. Again, people hate taxes/fees but will tolerate them if they see the results of those increases. A city vote would probbably easily pass at both City Hall and the court of public opinion if people saw the results immediately. If the integration will cost GO $XXX then taxes should be raised for that amount to offset the lost GO revenue loss but make it clear that the day the taxes take effect is the very same day you can use your Metropass on any GO train or bus within the 416.

Have any of you guys ever suggested or written to anyone about this? If not this is the time to when you have a Premier who is talking transit tax, a new Minister of Transportation who certainly wants to see more fare/transit connectivity, a city council that would probably support it and a mayor who has lost all credibility. If Metrolinx wants the OK for fees then this is the way to do it and not tell people to give us your money and things might improve in 10 years.

 

[Evening]

That's really not fair to the rest of the GTHA. Why should Toronto be able to pay local fares for the regional transit system when people elsewhere can't. Toronto already has much better rapid local transit than the other cities. I think that rapid transit is the one that's really meant to serve Torontonians while the GO system is meant for regional trips. GO is also much higher grade service than one you get for a local transit fare. People in Toronto who want to use GO for intra-city trips should continue to pay the fare by distance fare -- you're not gonna sell transit taxes to the 905 by heaping unfair benefits to Toronto.

Also, I am very very very happy that transit in Peel is not run by the regional government. That's what York Region did and we see the deterioration of transit there. Even if Peel Transit was not going to create an obligation to run transit in rural Caledon, I, as a person in Brampton, would regret seeing the great pace of transit expansion in the city be made to slow down because of the less transit friendly attitude of Mississauga. Transit can be run by Metrolinx, an agency dedicated to transit, or it can be run by the individual municipalities municipalities.

 

[ShonTron]

A simple zone system would be far easier to implement if the GTHA didn't have a such a dizzying array of transit providers.
Ham, Tor,Peel, Halton, York, GO, and Durham are the only transit systems that should be operating.

Except that Mississauga has a larger population than Durham Region; Brampton slightly higher than that of Halton Region (which hasn't regionalized transit). Ten years ago, Mississauga had by far the better service levels and Peel Region Transit would have been balked at by Mississauga and Caledon, which has opposed transit. 'Sauga still has a higher per capita transit ridership than Brampton, but that's largely attributable to having many routes to the subway which Brampton doesn't have and having a medium-sized post-secondary campus (501/A has been one big reason why BT's ridership went up).

As for regionalization of transit, it has been a mixed bag. Waterloo Region has done a rather good job, York started off quite promising but has been disappointing the last few years. Durham Region is making some progress, but its system is still a mess. I'd rather see minimum standards imposed rather than forced regionalization; places like Halton Hills and Caledon should be required to provide a minimum level of transit, but in whatever fashion works for them, be it creating their own systems, getting a regional system in place, or contracting to other agencies (Brampton would be intuitive as Caledon's provider for the Valleywood/Kennedy and Bolton areas)

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I agree shontron

If Halton hills want the kitchener off peak service there should be bus service, either BT or Halton Hills.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

That's really not fair to the rest of the GTHA. Why should Toronto be able to pay local fares for the regional transit system when people elsewhere can't. Toronto already has much better rapid local transit than the other cities. I think that rapid transit is the one that's really meant to serve Torontonians while the GO system is meant for regional trips. GO is also much higher grade service than one you get for a local transit fare. People in Toronto who want to use GO for intra-city trips should continue to pay the fare by distance fare -- you're not gonna sell transit taxes to the 905 by heaping unfair benefits to Toronto.

Also, I am very very very happy that transit in Peel is not run by the regional government. That's what York Region did and we see the deterioration of transit there. Even if Peel Transit was not going to create an obligation to run transit in rural Caledon, I, as a person in Brampton, would regret seeing the great pace of transit expansion in the city be made to slow down because of the less transit friendly attitude of Mississauga. Transit can be run by Metrolinx, an agency dedicated to transit, or it can be run by the individual municipalities municipalities.

I see no reason why the fare to ride the GO system within Toronto's borders can't be the same as a TTC premium fare, used on express routes. GO already has deals in place with local agencies to offer discounts for riders transferring from local transit (50 cents to transfer from YRT to GO).

 

[ShonTron]

I agree shontron

If Halton hills want the kitchener off peak service there should be bus service, either BT or Halton Hills.

Of course. Milton and Halton Hills whining about delayed all-day service beyond Meadowvale and Brampton (should be to Mount Pleasant, IMO) is rich. Milton doesn't have any weekend bus service (but dreaming of a needless post-secondary campus in the middle of nowhere and as far as possible from the GO station) and Georgetown has nothing and refuses to implement any local transit.

 

[Adjei]

I think one condition in order for the new revenue tools should be fare integration across the various transit operators across the region. This will make it easier for people who travel across different municipalities and make the region more connected.