Metrolinx Unveils Next Wave of Big Move Projects

[TheTigerMaster]

If you believe he will keep his promises, no major new transit project would launch in the GTA until 2020 and what is currently underway would be truncated to whatever has been tendered.

Much like Rob Ford, Mr. Hudak dosen't have much intention to build transit. If he's elected, don't be surprised if nothing gets built.

I can't understand the logic behind this. Ontario is losing $6 Billion annually due to inadequate transit and the NDP and PC solution to the problem is to sit on their hands and hope the problem goes away.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I can see where denfromoakvillemilton is coming from.

But transit and politicos are very closely related. It's natural for any transit discussion to occasionally evolve into a political one. It would be impossible to discuss transit without getting politics involved.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I can see where denfromoakvillemilton is coming from.

But transit and politicos are very closely related. It's natural for any transit discussion to occasionally evolve into a political one. It would be impossible to discuss transit without getting politics involved.

fair enough


looks like I am derailing the thread now

 

[TOareaFan]

I don't think many people really care about the Ornge stuff - it seems to be more about the corrupt meglomaniac in charge of Ornge than the government itself, with no indication of any kickbacks going to politicians, and even little awareness of how bad the siutation was.

I think the government failing here was in the area of oversight....but I would suggest that all parties should be wary of being too aggressive on this as it seems to something that all governments end up facing, to some degree, whenever they move from opposition to government.

The only one with a bit of traction is the gas plant, it's not clear where the blame is. If those building the plants said it was going to only cost $40-million to cancel rather than $400-million, then are the Liberals (all of which who were involved already having resigned) to blame? Seems more like incompetent civil servants ... And even if true, how do the NDP and Tories fight this during an election, given they also had promised to cancel the plants? So those that did this are gone, and if we go into an election, the two opponents had promised to cancel them anyways, against Wynne, who didn't make the decision.

There seemed to be a couple of questions left dangling the other day.

The head of OPG (I think it was him) said that the government knew what the true cost was....but no one seemed to say "show us the communication that told them"....if the government of the day truly thought that the cost was $40mil based on estimates provided to them by OPG...then it would seem harsh to hit them with the political damage of the $400 mil figure (other than from an oversight point of view...but see above for my thoughts on that).

In the past, now Premier Wynne has admitted that the decision to cancel the plants was a political one tied to re-election (kudos for her honesty there)......in her testimony, however, she stated categorically that she was not part of the decsion. If I was questioning her, then, I would ask her how such an important political decision during a campaign gets made without the vice-chairperson of the re-election committee being involved in the decision.

In the end, however, she and her team is just doing, now, what any party would do....that is, try to put the mistakes of the regime she has been part of firmly into the laps of people no longer involved while taking credit for any successes and, at the very same time, paint the picture of a new group of dedicated people making the right decisions going forward.

Given the interestingly short attention span of the electorate, I am not sure they won't be successful and, certainly, her odds of succeeding increase with time (assuming the "scandals" of Orange, eHealth and gas plants are not replaced in the papers with newer, fresher, issues)....that is why I am surprised that either of the opposition parties are not pressing for an election "now"(ish).

 

[isUsername]

Hudak Promises:
<snip>

There are at least a few inaccuracies in this post. It attributes certain projects to parties/governments who are 1) not responsible for the project and are just providing partial funding, 2) not responsible for implementing the project at all, or 3) not the only ones promising the project.

Here's the list below, with my comments in bold. There may be further inaccuracies, but these are just the ones that I know.

Hudak Promises:

Sheppard Subway
Eglinton underground LRT
427 extension
mid-peninsula highway

The liberals promise:
ECLRT
FWLRT
SELRT
Hurontario LRT
Hamilton LRT - Partially funded by the Liberal government, but not a Liberal government project. Indications are that Liberal government funding will be no more than 1/3.
Kitchener LRT - Partially funded by the Liberal government, but not a Liberal government project. The Liberal government originally promised 2/3 funding, but final approved amount was 1/3 of the planned cost. The federal Conservatives are funding 1/3, with the regional government picking up the rest. Both the NDP and the PCs have promised to maintain funding. I don't know if the PCs would have funded it originally, but it's hard to see the NDP not providing at least the same amount of funding.
Yonge Subway
DRL
electrified 15 minute service on both lakeshore lines, and the kitchener line - Electrification is only within the GTA. The segments outside the GTA will not be electrified. Not really an inaccuracy, but I thought I'd mention it.
all day 2 way GO on all remaining lines - This has been dropped from the current plan. While it was part of the Liberal's 2011-2015 platform, it has now been pushed back to 2020 (an eternity in provincial politics) and is now only planned the "core" area. Milton, Barrie, the Kitchener Line beyond Mount Pleasent, and the Lakeshore West Line beyond Hamilton are not planned for all-day service.
Durham BRT
Queen street BRT
Dundas BRT


What the Liberals have built/ are building;

407 extension
400 extension
404 extension
highway 11 twinning
Windsor-Essex parkway
410 extension
Multiple twinning projects in Northern ontario
Ottawa LRT - Partially funded by the Liberal government, but not a Liberal government project. The Liberal government and federal Conservative government are each providing funding for just over 1/4 of the project, with the regional government picking up the rest.
Spadina Subway extension
30 minute GO service on lakeshore lines
ARL
Georgetown reconstruction
Mississauga Transitway
York region BRT


PCs when last in government:

Sheppard subway
cancellation of Eglinton subway
406 extension
407 - This was actually a multi-government project. Preperation work (such as temporary by-passes and interchange work) started under the Peterson Liberals, the full original length was started under the Rae New Democrats, and the project was completed during the Harris PC government. The PCs main impact on this project was the private leasing of control of the completed highway for 99 years.

 

[ssiguy2]

The biggest omission of the the BIG Move projects is the one that would probably mean the most to the people of the GTA and the easiest to implement.............full GO integration into the local transit system. A system where your local transit pass gets you onto any of the local GO buses/trains.

No endless enviornmental reviews, community debates, political hassles..............nothing. That is something that could be brought in with a simple stroke of a pen and could take effect tomorrow. If the TTC and/or Metrolinx went to the populace and stated the increased taxes would take effect the very same day the new GO fare system would then you would find most would support it. People don't want to have their taxes raised for a promise of doing something someday. This is particularily true of Metrolinx and the TTC which have zero credibility.

Just as it is unreasonable to start collecting the tolls on a new bridge before the bridge is open, you cannot expect people to start paying higher taxes until the service is improved.

 

[DavidH]

The biggest omission of the the BIG Move projects is the one that would probably mean the most to the people of the GTA and the easiest to implement.............full GO integration into the local transit system. A system where your local transit pass gets you onto any of the local GO buses/trains.

How so?

Seems to me that GO is operating at capacity during rush, so GO fares are clearly not a sufficient disincentive to ride that we need to focus on making them cheaper, which is what the effect of your proposal would be.

Given the HUGE costs that are coming to build BIG Move, therefore, why should we reduce fares?

 

[TOareaFan]

How so?

Seems to me that GO is operating at capacity during rush, so GO fares are clearly not a sufficient disincentive to ride that we need to focus on making them cheaper, which is what the effect of your proposal would be.

Given the HUGE costs that are coming to build BIG Move, therefore, why should we reduce fares?

I think the point sissguy2 is making is that within municipalities it should cost the same to ride GO as the local transit. So, if you get on and off in the same municipality your presto card charges the same as if you would have ridden the local transit.

This is often seen as just a Toronto matter but there are lots of other municipalities too where GO buses and trains could be used that way. Someone living near the mobility hub at Mt. Pleasant who works in the Steeles/Dixie area might enjoy a 17 minute train ride to work rather than a 55 minute (minimum 1 transfer) municipal bus ride......the current $4.97 presto charge for that might discourage that 38 minutes of convenience when weighed against the BT Presto charge of $2.75.

I often seen GO buses pulling over at the Zum stop at Queen/Kennedy to let people off. Quite often there are people there waiting for a bus to the DT bus terminal....no one gets on the GO bus......they choose to wait for the next BT 1 or 501.....likely the over $4 fare that GO would charge (plus not being a free transfer to BT when they get to the terminal) is the reason.

As long as you limit the integration to presto fares, there is no earthly reason that GO can not be used to augment local transit within cities right away. I am not sure it is a huge impact thing but it is such a simple thing (tap on and off within the same municipality and pay the equivalent of municipal fares and be subject to municipal transfer rules) you have to wonder why it is not done.

Sure, people getting on at Weston for a trip to Union might not like that they never get a seat.....but if they compare that convenience to their alternatives to getting to Union...that might be a trade off they are happy making.

 

[innsertnamehere]

There are at least a few inaccuracies in this post. It attributes certain projects to parties/governments who are 1) not responsible for the project and are just providing partial funding, 2) not responsible for implementing the project at all, or 3) not the only ones promising the project.

Here's the list below, with my comments in bold. There may be further inaccuracies, but these are just the ones that I know.

I am fully aware of all of those points. An you are incorrect on two of them. All day 2 way GO is in the transit tax plan, meaning it is very close to happening. As for the Hamilton lrT, the province is planning to fund 100% of it, through the transit tax. You are correct with the Kitchener LRT and the Ottawa LRT, but I am going off of the fact that Hudak has promised to cancel the toronto LRT, so I trust he will also cancel the Kitchener LRT and promise a 2km subway instead using the same money.

 

[nfitz]

How so?

Seems to me that GO is operating at capacity during rush, so GO fares are clearly not a sufficient disincentive to ride that we need to focus on making them cheaper, which is what the effect of your proposal would be.

Given the HUGE costs that are coming to build BIG Move, therefore, why should we reduce fares?

Because with 2-way all-day service, 50% of your trains, aren't even heading in the direction which is at capacity.

Perhaps you integrate fares for off-peak and peak travel that doesn't enter the zone that Union station is in.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I think the point sissguy2 is making is that within municipalities it should cost the same to ride GO as the local transit. So, if you get on and off in the same municipality your presto card charges the same as if you would have ridden the local transit.

This is often seen as just a Toronto matter but there are lots of other municipalities too where GO buses and trains could be used that way. Someone living near the mobility hub at Mt. Pleasant who works in the Steeles/Dixie area might enjoy a 17 minute train ride to work rather than a 55 minute (minimum 1 transfer) municipal bus ride......the current $4.97 presto charge for that might discourage that 38 minutes of convenience when weighed against the BT Presto charge of $2.75.

I agree.

We have a great network of commuter rail in Toronto and nobody living and working in Toronto uses it for exactly this reason. It is insane that we have people in Scarborough taking the 45 minute Bloor-Danforth trip downtown when they could get there in 20 minutes on GO. I would love to see GO upgraded to rapid transit (much greater train frequencies) and 100% full integration with the TTC and respective agencies within other municipalities.

 

[TOareaFan]

I agree.

We have a great network of commuter rail in Toronto and nobody living and working in Toronto uses it for exactly this reason. It is insane that we have people in Scarborough taking the 45 minute Bloor-Danforth trip downtown when they could get their in 20 minutes on GO. I would love to see GO upgraded to rapid transit (much greater train frequencies) and 100% full integration with the TTC and respective agencies within other municipalities.

I think everyone wants more GO.....inside and outside of Toronto.....I just don't know why they don't allow it to be treated as local transit now.....let the public decide if the current number of trains/buses is not enough to bother with/make convenient. I am willing to bet if someone near Union getting of work at around 5:45 and headed to somewhere in the west end...... they might like to take that KW GO train out to the BD subway and transfer there rather than take the subway up to St. George and transfer there......try it out...what is the cost? those buses and trains are running anyway....and on the Lakeshore(s) they are going to be running every 30 minutes each way 7 days a week......is a TTC fare from the S. Etobicoke resident not worth more than the empty seat he/she replaces? (and by that I don't mean to imply that all the seats are empty but in another discussion we pretty much all agreed that, on average, there are over a 1,000 empty seats on average on the off peak trains).

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Just expand the metropass to the GTA then. 110 bucks per month and its vaild from Hamilton to Clarington to Georgina. All transit systems.

 

[innsertnamehere]

110 is too cheap for a regional pass.. Considering a GO pass is 330, maybe meet in the middle for 200

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I think everyone wants more GO.....inside and outside of Toronto.....I just don't know why they don't allow it to be treated as local transit now.....let the public decide if the current number of trains/buses is not enough to bother with/make convenient.

The problem with this is the relative unpredictability of the GO system. Someone in Scarborough cannot simply walk to Kennedy GO station and know that they'll be able to pick up a train in a few minutes. What I think Metrolinx should do is increase train frequency within Toronto and surrounding areas to something that is somewhat frequent. I think that once every 15 to 20 minutes all day would be good. Then implement full integration with TTC, so someone could theoretically take a bus to Kennedy GO and ride the train downtown on a single fair. Finally add stations at Danforth and DRL and call it a day.

I understand that Union Station probably won't be able to handle this. But that is no excuse for not fully utilizing the rail corridors in the city. We're lucky to live in a city that has so many well positioned rail corridos. We should be using them to their full potential.