Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

[OneCity]

The STC will become a viable spot if the local councillors put in the effort to make it so. It is not up to the TTC to do that, though the subway will act in a supporting role.

Agreed, but make no mistake the direct subway connection(s) will have a massive impact on the area connectivity to the City. Going forward there needs to be a more determined approach to inject life in to the area from local councilors as well as solid support from outside council.

The biggest benefit to connecting Scarborough Center to the main transit trunk and running a seamless City and Scarborough wide east-west LRT along Eglinton is that it will be a starting point in uniting the City politically to fight together for similar issues in the future. Whatever happens on Sheppard will only enhance this change.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

One may wonder what if North York, Scarborough and Etobicoke were still independent cities during the 2000s office construction boom...
How different their "downtown" would have turned out.

That line of thinking seems to assume that the private sector would act differently under the scenario that these were independent cities.

I don't think so. The private sector acted based on market trends and pressures.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Agreed, but make no mistake the direct subway connection(s) will have a massive impact on the area connectivity to the City.

You realize this is a fallacy right?

Studies (going back to the 1970s) have regularly and consistently cautioned against the ability of transit to induce major land use change on it's own. Transit infrastructure is just one cog in a wheel to explain long-term growth and revitalization patterns.

Scarborough Town Centre itself is a geat example of this, as has been repeatedly brought up on this site. STC has had rapid transit access (however inadequate or inefficient it is) for 30 years, yet has had little development and maintains it's urban-hostile land uses with virtually zero signs of changing outside of public sector intervention. Hell, even the private sector is refusing to speculate on land in STC despite the years of transit debate and near-affirmation that this area will receive new forms of rapid transit. (Meanwhile, land speculation is already occuring along Dundas West, The Queensway, Eglinton Corridor, Yonge North corridor and the DRL alignment in anticipation of rapid transit that is decades away.)

 

[11th]

Good chance nothing at all - there was pretty much no office development in MCC post 92 - and that's with lower property taxes. If my memory holds, it is all office parks in the GTA and it stayed that way till the mid-2000s (maybe there is a bit of Two Kings industrial/warehouse to office conversion going as well?)

AoD

Wasn't North York's downtown doing well before the early 90s recessions ? At least that's when I think most of the office development came in..

So if the suburbs were still cities on their own during the mid-2000s, maybe there'd be chance new offices be built there.

That line of thinking seems to assume that the private sector would act differently under the scenario that these were independent cities.

I don't think so. The private sector acted based on market trends and pressures.

By being independent cities, I assume they have the power to set incentives to lure new developments away from Toronto's downtown?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Wasn't North York's downtown doing well before the early 90s recessions ? At least that's when I think most of the office development came in..
So if the suburbs were still cities on their own during the mid-2000s, maybe there'd be chance new offices be built there.
By being independent cities, I assume they have the power to set incentives to lure new developments away from Toronto's downtown?

I think all of the "centres" were doing better before the 90s recession, but the volume of office space wasn't that impressive. As to your second argument - if that is the case, the independent MCC should have seen significant office development, given the significantly lower commercial tax rate in the context of the 905 office boom, but it didn't even in the mid-2000s. Ultimately, one has to recognize that the centres (in Metro Toronto at least) was designed to relief downtown, not to satisfy an overwhelming demand for suburban office space in a downtown like format.

AoD

 

[11th]

I think all of the "centres" were doing better before the 90s recession, but the volume of office space wasn't that impressive. As to your second argument - if that is the case, the independent MCC should have seen significant office development, given the significantly lower commercial tax rate in the context of the 905 office boom, but it didn't even in the mid-2000s. Ultimately, one has to recognize that the centres (in Metro Toronto at least) was designed to relief downtown, not to satisfy an overwhelming demand for suburban office space in a downtown like format.

AoD

Then the only thing they can blame is not being on Yonge St., or perhaps having a rapid transit connection? I think those might be the factors that make it inferior to former Metro's centres.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Then the only thing they can blame is not being on Yonge St., or perhaps having a rapid transit connection? I think those might be the factors that make it inferior to former Metro's centres.

Except that MCC is the hub of the MT system, and it would be rather odd that none of the centres with rapid transit connection also saw no new builds either - and there isn't an demand for it even now. Clearly something else is at work.

AoD

 

[OneCity]

You realize this is a fallacy right?

Studies (going back to the 1970s) have regularly and consistently cautioned against the ability of transit to induce major land use change on it's own. Transit infrastructure is just one cog in a wheel to explain long-term growth and revitalization patterns.

Scarborough Town Centre itself is a geat example of this, as has been repeatedly brought up on this site. STC has had rapid transit access (however inadequate or inefficient it is) for 30 years, yet has had little development and maintains it's urban-hostile land uses with virtually zero signs of changing outside of public sector intervention. Hell, even the private sector is refusing to speculate on land in STC despite the years of transit debate and near-affirmation that this area will receive new forms of rapid transit. (Meanwhile, land speculation is already occuring along Dundas West, The Queensway, Eglinton Corridor, Yonge North corridor and the DRL alignment in anticipation of rapid transit that is decades away.)

It may not be the only factor but all you need to do is look at a City subway map to see that wealth pools much easier around the subway locations. So it certainly is not a fallacy

Don't get me wrong im fully aware there are other variables which attract investment. But when people invest they want to invest in places they feel secure. If Scarborough's own City transit agency refuses to invest at a level that connects Scarborough Center seamlessly to the main infrastructure of Torontos main job core its hard for anyone to feel excited about investing in a area which unfairly, but by far has the worst perception in the GTA. The subway extension will do wonders for integrating Scarborough and showing investors that the City is interested in investing in this area. Its one major piece of the bigger puzzle to help reshape the City of Toronto as a whole for the better.

I firmly believe a subway stop and a bit more attention to detail in planning Scarborough Center will be a demand area for commuters to live. And having Scarborough Center vibrant and seamlessly connected to its own City is very important to many residents.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

By being independent cities, I assume they have the power to set incentives to lure new developments away from Toronto's downtown?

Dissolving the City of Toronto so that new downtowns might be built, so that might be used to justify more rapid transit project. I know that's not necessarily what you're suggesting, but talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Edward Skira]

The subway extension will do wonders for integrating Scarborough and showing investors that the City is interested in investing in this area. Its one major piece of the bigger puzzle to help reshape the City of Toronto as a whole for the better.

Dream on. And by the way Scarborough has stations at Victoria Park, Warden and Kennedy. Not much happening at those stop either.

 

[OneCity]

Dream on. And by the way Scarborough has stations at Victoria Park, Warden and Kennedy. Not much happening at those stop either.

Your narrow comparison are to stations which have a completely different development plans and restrictions. Scarborough Centre will be more comparable to the likes of Yonge and Sheppard, Don Mills, & Islington than any of those locations. Kennedy & Eglinton will also easily find development success once the LRT is complete and subway is extended to SCC so the building restrictions can be removed.

 

[Johnny Au]

Dream on. And by the way Scarborough has stations at Victoria Park, Warden and Kennedy. Not much happening at those stop either.

Scarborough had subway stations since 1968, which is almost half a century!

 

[amnesiajune]

Studies (going back to the 1970s) have regularly and consistently cautioned against the ability of transit to induce major land use change on it's own.

The problem is the belief that the benefits of transit projects have to be within walking distance. That's definitely not the case for a subway. The benefit is everywhere in northern and eastern Scarborough, since those areas get a transit hub on the Bloor-Danforth line. With an LRT that belief is more true, which is why the comparison of numbers of stops is misleading - it assumes that stops on a suburban LRT line are similar to stops on a subway line that crosses the entire city.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The problem is the belief that the benefits of transit projects have to be within walking distance. That's definitely not the case for a subway. The benefit is everywhere in northern and eastern Scarborough, since those areas get a transit hub on the Bloor-Danforth line. With an LRT that belief is more true, which is why the comparison of numbers of stops is misleading - it assumes that stops on a suburban LRT line are similar to stops on a subway line that crosses the entire city.

Not entirely misleading, since the one-stop option denies commuters who's buses travel on Lawrence and Sheppard a convenient connection to rapid transit

 

[W. K. Lis]

Let's see. You're a developer. Would you want to build near Scarborough Town Centre... or near the announced East Harbour site? I'll pick East Harbour. See link.