Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

[ehlow]

I'm assuming the money is not "free to use" on other things..

Also I can't take transit plans more than 5-10 years away seriously (or even more than 5 years). Sure, subway in the 2030s. It's so far in the future discussing it now is pretty irrelevant in my opinion. Who knows who will be in charge that far in the future.

 

[SJD_Toronto]

Despite this, I'm somewhat conflicted about closing the gap between the Yonge and University line with the subway. In a world with unlimited resources, sure, why not. Especially since it would also connect to the Barrie RER line. However, since this is not the world we live in, it may be better to look at using the Finch LRT to close said gap as it would be more affordable and accomplish pretty much the same goal.

There is a stronger chance of a west Sheppard Subway extension happening before closing the gap with a east Finch LRT extension

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm assuming the money is not "free to use" on other things..

It's not.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Isn't it more that an orphan LRT truly makes no sense? I can imagine that this delay is in hopes that the Line 2 extension is again cancelled, to be replaced by something that could be integrated with Sheppard transit, be it Smarttrack or some new version of SRT. Or else it's a placeholder until the next election, when something new can be announced.

Regardless, if SELRT is dead then this frees up about $1 billion plus $500 million for Conlins. Correct? All in 2010 commitments, so call it $2 billion or so.

How should that $2 billion now be spent on East side transit improvements? What do people think?

It should be spent on the Scarborough Malvern LRT. Scarborough desperately needs it. That line will move 5,000 pphpd, the same as ECLRT. There's no excuse for it not to be build it

(I write this as I'm stuck on a bus on Kingston road. Sigh.)

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

This region, not just the city, never fails to amaze. The same pattern over and over and over for DECADES with no self awareness. Plans made, plans half-executed, thrown out, undermined.

Preach. The real kicker is that we have everything in place to end this pattern: The Big Move, and the Investment Strategy. Local politics screws up the former, and Wynne's flip-flopping screws up the latter. Together, it has dashed this region of being able to move from this sad system of political pork barreling, to one based on logic, and supported by stable, predicable timelines and funding.

In-fucking-credible. More here.

 

[44 North]

And no, I'm not a Rob Ford subway fetishist. I'm saying that we have broken eggs, and rather than continuing to procrastinate on trying to turn them into nice fried ones, we say screw it and just make a kick ass omelette now.

I think we’ll be revisiting the subway. Not that I really support it or anything, but when looking at the writing on the wall I do think the issue will be rearing its head again. And IMO in the end we’re more likely to get nothing built on Sheppard East than something.

And I agree about your position on ‘closing the gap’. Looks good on paper, but not really worth it. Another point to keep in mind is the valley crossing. It’d be a costly endeavour any way it’s tackled.

 

[ehlow]

This region, not just the city, never fails to amaze. The same pattern over and over and over for DECADES with no self awareness. Plans made, plans half-executed, thrown out, undermined.

I know he's too dim to understand the damage he's done but I'd like think deep down inside Rob Ford understands: now Sheppard gets NOTHING. It's like they were offered a perfectly nice outfit from The Gap and he said, "No, we deserve an Armani!" and the province said (after YEARS of wasted time), "Fine, now you don't get an Armani or an outfit from The Gap. You get nothing. Well, maybe in 20 years we'll get back to The Gap. See ya!"

If it was another city it would be funny. If you live here, it's outright pathetic.
On the other hand, the Finch news is good!

Yeah, the constant throwing out & delaying of plans is obviously brutal.

On the plus side, there are so many plans that occasionally one of them actually makes it through and starts construction, like Eglinton, and it's looking good for Finch.

Basically my comment is: at least something is getting built, which is more than you can say for decades past in Toronto.

 

[allabootmatt]

At this point the Sheppard LRT is clearly a lost cause. I thought it was always a bit of a stretch; that it would extend a half-finished, if severely underused, subway was just too much too overcome.

This brings me to my general feeling about LRT in Toronto, which is that it's only faster and cheaper than subways if you don't spend ten years arguing about it and wasting money.

If money can be found (a big 'if'), I suppose a small extension of the subway to Victoria Park is a reasonable outcome. But that shouldn't be anywhere near the top of the priority list for scarce transit dollars. My fear is that this lack of resolution will embolden the 'subway in every pot' crowd to try to return Sheppard to the front of the queue, at the expense of the drastically more important DRL or even SmartTrack.

 

[christiesplits]

If money can be found (a big 'if'), I suppose a small extension of the subway to Victoria Park is a reasonable outcome. But that shouldn't be anywhere near the top of the priority list for scarce transit dollars. My fear is that this lack of resolution will embolden the 'subway in every pot' crowd to try to return Sheppard to the front of the queue, at the expense of the drastically more important DRL or even SmartTrack.

I always thought Victoria Park was a more natural terminus for the stubway than Don Mills, especially with Consumers Park being one of Toronto's biggest office clusters outside of downtown. I could see something of a subway-LRT compromise. Like a subway extension to Victoria Park and a busway from Victoria Park to STC.

Regardless, as long as Karygiannis and Cho are around they will play the "second class Scarborough" card until our ear drums burst.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Listen, caving in on the Bloor Danforth extension was the first mistake. You never, ever cave in these type of arguments. Now they took the cave, they want the entire forest. One subway was *never* going to be enough, and that's why I opposed the Bloor Danforth extension. It's not just two or three Councillors, it's the entire scarborough liberal caucus, at least 5 Councillors including Kelly and Ford and an apathetic mayor.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Yeah, the constant throwing out & delaying of plans is obviously brutal.

On the plus side, there are so many plans that occasionally one of them actually makes it through and starts construction, like Eglinton, and it's looking good for Finch.

Basically my comment is: at least something is getting built, which is more than you can say for decades past in Toronto.

It's true that some good stuff IS getting built but "something is getting built" is the same logic that gave us 1/2 the Sheppard subway and Eglinton 20 years after it was first planned (and started). We have to stop saying that's good enough.

As DonValleyRainbow said, things should have been different this time. We HAVE a regional plan, we HAVE a regional transit agency, we HAVE (to a degree) regional transit funding....and STILL it's the same mistakes being made in the 70s and 80s. It's amazing that Sheppard went from a full subway to a half subway to (after a decade-long break) an LRT to an unfunded subway to a delayed LRT. And it all comes out in the guise of saving taxpayers.

Well, I'd like Mike Harris to explain to Ontarians how he SAVED them billions by not building Eglinton. How much more is it costing to build now? How much did it cost to fill in the hole? How much tax revenue was lost from jobs not created; developments that never happened along the corridor? It's a net loss, no doubt about it. And it will be the same on Sheppard; the gap between what could have been if it had just been finished in 2002(ish) and what may eventually be built by 2030...there's no way we're coming out financially ahead but to the Rob Ford/MikeHarris kind of conservative it's always better to save $5 now and make someone else spend $20 on the same thing after you're long gone. (And it's no coincidence Joe Oliver said almost the exact same thing about the TFSA thing last week. It's a bona fide fiscal policy.)

(On a lighter note - did we ever actually see anything resembling an actual estimate for crossing the valley east of Bathurst? Maybe it costs enough to make closing the two lines less than viable, but given its potential role as a northern bypass, shuffling people off the Yonge line, it still seems potentially worth it. I guess that depends in large part on how much traffic their models show it might actually divert.)

 

[k10ery]

It should be spent on the Scarborough Malvern LRT. Scarborough desperately needs it. That line will move 5,000 pphpd, the same as ECLRT. There's no excuse for it not to be build it

(I write this as I'm stuck on a bus on Kingston road. Sigh.)

It's even harder to see that ever being built now. You'd still need an east side yard which is $$$. And without SELRT trackage on Sheppard the route would have to be revisited I think. I'd think Malvern residents would be better off placing their faith in a future SmartTrack line along Belleville sub. That's something I can see the Harper government putting money into.

If money can be found (a big 'if'), I suppose a small extension of the subway to Victoria Park is a reasonable outcome. But that shouldn't be anywhere near the top of the priority list for scarce transit dollars. My fear is that this lack of resolution will embolden the 'subway in every pot' crowd to try to return Sheppard to the front of the queue, at the expense of the drastically more important DRL or even SmartTrack.

Oh god I hope not. $1 billion unescalated for a single subway station. We've got to stop thinking that sounds like a reasonable deal.

And I would hate for people like Norm Kelly and the Fords to be able to declare even partial victory on Sheppard subway. It just leads to more political shenanigans in the future.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

And what do you suggest to solve the traffic chaos at Don Mills Station?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

And I would hate for people like Norm Kelly and the Fords to be able to declare even partial victory on Sheppard subway. It just leads to more political shenanigans in the future.

We've been living in that future since Ford got elected. This is all the fallout from that.
He killed Transit City and the province caved on Scarborough and then had 2 reports on revenue tools that got tossed out of political cowardice. I really feel like the positive ball that got rolling from Places to Grow to Metrolinx to the Big Move is on life support, at best.
It's great, sincerely, that they're taking all this hydro money and using it for transit - mostly legit, badly needed projects. You can't really take any shots at RER or the money going to Mississauga and Waterloo.

But the process isn't any better than it used to be and things aren't being planned or announced with any kind of underlying philosophy beyond "spread it around." The idea of an integrated network seems out the window.

I know there's still stuff going on, in terms of fare integration and updating The Big Move but Ford's moves shone a spotlight on how far removed Metrolinx actually was from planning and executing the Regional Transit Plan and there's no evidence that's changing.

 

[sixrings]

I just don't understand why the city refuses to put a toll up to raise and pay for its own lrt projects instead of constantly waiting for the province or feds to bail us out. At least if we raised and paid for it ourselves it would be considerably less political and there would always be something being built.