Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[APTA-2048]

Used my Presto card for the first time today. I was told all I needed to do to activate it was tap a balance check machine. I decided not to register online but go to Union (I needed to go downtown anyways) after a friend of mine registered online and had his card locked because he didn't use it within seven days. However, the attendant at Union said I should register online or by mail, so now I have filled out a registration form and sent it in.

I'm using it mostly for TTC and the occasional GO trip, so the convenience factor for now is small. One thing I don't really like is what is loaded is measured in dollars opposed to specific "tickets" as used on the Opus card. I find it easier to track how many rides I have left with the method used with Opus instead of keeping track of the dollar value and working out what trips I can take.

Also there's an interesting article is the Star about Presto, the TTC, and their new credit/debit card system:

TTC moving ahead with wave-of-the-card payment
But Rossi vows, if elected, to kill it in favour of Presto system

David Rider
Urban Affairs Bureau Chief

The TTC plans to sign a contract this year for the development of a fare system that will allow riders to get on board simply by waving their credit or debit cards, and possibly even cellphones, at the turnstile, Adam Giambrone says.

The TTC chair told the Star on Tuesday that a request-for-proposal will go out in early August, with a winning bid hopefully chosen in the fall for a system-wide rollout to start in 2011.

“It will be an open payment system that will let you use your credit card or debit card at the turnstile, with a wave or a tap, for use on subways, buses and streetcars, to pay either per ride or to load your various transit passes,†similar to transit systems in New York City and Washington, D.C., Giambrone said.

In April, the TTC said it was studying the technology, similar to that of Mastercard’s PayPass system that sees customers at Tim Hortons and other outlets pay for goods with the swipe of a card bearing a radio frequency identification chip. Giambrone said the request-for-proposal will include possible use of chip-enabled cellphones.

The Davenport councillor, who is not running for re-election in the Oct. 25 election, revealed the plan when asked for his reaction to a pledge by mayoral candidate Rocco Rossi to have the TTC quickly implement the province’s Presto smart card.

Giambrone said the TTC will likely offer Presto or a similar card — also allowing entry with a swipe or tap, without tokens and transfers — for those who can’t or don’t want to use credit or debit cards, including children, as well as continuing with cash and tokens.

He argued open payment, which relies on credit card companies to process transactions, is easier and cheaper to implement than Presto’s proprietary technology.

But Rossi said the open payment system would be much more expensive because the TTC wouldn’t get a hefty subsidy from the province, as it will if it fully adopts Presto.

“If I am elected, in just three short months, Toronto is going to finally get some customer service and new thinking in their transit system,†with a TTC-wide adoption of Presto and later use of it for other city services including Toronto zoo admission and payment of parking tickets, Rossi said.

Later, he said through his spokeswoman Patricia Best that he will “absolutely†try to kill the open payment system if he is elected mayor after a contract is signed.

“Why would they rush this after dragging their feet for so long? Do they truly want to kill any hope of partnership with the province?†Rossi said in an email.

Best added that the biggest problem with open payment is its effect on the “un-banked†— “children, the poor, sometimes the elderly, people with bankruptcies, etc. A municipal card solves that problem and even could possiblybe integrated into social services.â€

 

[Justin10000]

A knee-jerk reaction from the Rossi camp. Rossi should be all over this idea.

 

[RedRocket191]

I've been thinking about this all night, and here's how I feel about this.

If open payment is going to have (1) the functionality of a smart card where it will automatically cap itself after a designated number of rides, if (2) it will recongnize transfers and not charge people again within a designated number of hours, and if (3) it is not being used as a way to delay the implementation of Presto any further than it is already being delayed for those who use multiple systems then I feel I can support it.

But, if this is just going to be used as a way to pay my initial fare (ie they are still going to give me a paper transfer) then please, don't waste my time.

 

[taal]

I've been thinking about this all night, and here's how I feel about this.

If open payment is going to have (1) the functionality of a smart card where it will automatically cap itself after a designated number of rides, if (2) it will recongnize transfers and not charge people again within a designated number of hours, and if (3) it is not being used as a way to delay the implementation of Presto any further than it is already being delayed for those who use multiple systems then I feel I can support it.

But, if this is just going to be used as a way to pay my initial fare (ie they are still going to give me a paper transfer) then please, don't waste my time.

I dunno, I'd really love that as well actually ... if this is a first step to implementing the full system, and as you said doesn't interfere, I really wouldn't mind - I'd love to buy day passes with my visa card. But I agree with the general sentiment of your post.

 

[gweed123]

I dunno, I'd really love that as well actually ... if this is a first step to implementing the full system, and as you said doesn't interfere, I really wouldn't mind - I'd love to buy day passes with my visa card. But I agree with the general sentiment of your post.

I have to admit, I'm a tad confused about why paying with your CC and using a Presto card are mutually-exclusive systems. Why not do both? If you aren't leaving Toronto, is there really a difference between using Presto vs using your Visa card? Also, if you're going to be replacing the payment systems across the TTC (ie implementing 1 of those 2 options), why not implement them both at the same time? Why spend the money twice? Of course, we're talking about the TTC here, so doing what is both logical and financially prudent is not an option.

 

[RedRocket191]

I have to admit, I'm a tad confused about why paying with your CC and using a Presto card are mutually-exclusive systems. Why not do both? If you aren't leaving Toronto, is there really a difference between using Presto vs using your Visa card? Also, if you're going to be replacing the payment systems across the TTC (ie implementing 1 of those 2 options), why not implement them both at the same time? Why spend the money twice? Of course, we're talking about the TTC here, so doing what is both logical and financially prudent is not an option.

They're not mutually exclusive, and I have no problem with open payment being used in parallel. But I do feel that the status quo of only planning for people who live in Toronto is not one that should be maintained. We are expecting a million more people in the region in the planning horizons under consideration, and there is no way that we will be able accomodate them within the 416. As such, a more integrated transit system is needed and one of the vehicles through which that occurs is a single fare payment system (and eventually a single fare system).

I'm not suggesting that the TTC is using Open Payment as a deliberate attempt to undermine Presto and the integration that it represents, but maybe I'm insinuating it.

 

[DavidH]

If open payment is going to have (1) the functionality of a smart card where it will automatically cap itself after a designated number of rides, if (2) it will recongnize transfers and not charge people again within a designated number of hours, and if (3) it is not being used as a way to delay the implementation of Presto any further than it is already being delayed for those who use multiple systems then I feel I can support it.

I can support it IF it is simply an alternate expression of a PRESTO card, with all of the same functionality. Personally, I still wouldn't want to be standing at a bus stop with my credit card in hand. The risk level with PRESTO is much lower.

 

[TOareaFan]

Giambrone said the TTC will likely offer Presto or a similar card — also allowing entry with a swipe or tap, without tokens and transfers — for those who can’t or don’t want to use credit or debit cards, including children, as well as continuing with cash and tokens.

He argued open payment, which relies on credit card companies to process transactions, is easier and cheaper to implement than Presto’s proprietary technology.

This is the section of the article that most interests/concerns me and, specifically, the bolded parts. The TTC just, simply speaking, has not accepted Presto. They are still taking shots about the cost of implementation and even in acknowledging that some kind of card is needed as an alternative to credit/debit cards can bring themselves to say Presto without adding "or similar".

There is the prospect, then, that the much vaunted fair payment integration that Presto promises could end up being Presto Card for GO/some locals....then when you get downtown fish out your visa or "not presto but similar card" to get on the TTC.

 

[rbt]

I can support it IF it is simply an alternate expression of a PRESTO card, with all of the same functionality. Personally, I still wouldn't want to be standing at a bus stop with my credit card in hand. The risk level with PRESTO is much lower.

Why? You report your credit card stolen and the bank (mine does at very least) covers/reverses any fraudulent charges, including ones which occurred before you reported it stolen.

I'm not familiar with what occurs when you report a PRESTO card stolen. Do they freeze the card immediately and refund any trips which you state you did not take?

 

[RedRocket191]

This is the section of the article that most interests/concerns me and, specifically, the bolded parts. The TTC just, simply speaking, has not accepted Presto. They are still taking shots about the cost of implementation and even in acknowledging that some kind of card is needed as an alternative to credit/debit cards can bring themselves to say Presto without adding "or similar".

There is the prospect, then, that the much vaunted fair payment integration that Presto promises could end up being Presto Card for GO/some locals....then when you get downtown fish out your visa or "not presto but similar card" to get on the TTC.

Let's not forget that Presto is a binding condition of funding for provincial transit projects in the GTA, so we are getting Presto on the TTC... Eventually. They can spin it all they want, legally it has to be Presto AND similar, not OR.

Why? You report your credit card stolen and the bank (mine does at very least) covers/reverses any fraudulent charges, including ones which occurred before you reported it stolen.

I'm not familiar with what occurs when you report a PRESTO card stolen. Do they freeze the card immediately and refund any trips which you state you did not take?

DavidH (and my) point is that some people do not feel safe taking their credit card out of their wallets and flashing it on the bus. I think that's a reasonable concern, and its comparable to not wanting to walk into a dark alley. The odds are that nothing will harm you in the alley, but you can't deny that people won't want to walk down there if given the choice.

 

[DavidH]

Why? You report your credit card stolen and the bank (mine does at very least) covers/reverses any fraudulent charges, including ones which occurred before you reported it stolen.

Even assuming that I am able to get it frozen immediately, that means that I will be without my credit card for a week. I was through that earlier this year and while my bank was extremely helpful, it was still a royal pain in the rear.

The risk of losing it when I have to take it out of my wallet *in the street* several times per day seems unacceptably high to me. Further, getting my credit card out implies getting my wallet out. Again, that's a risk. My PRESTO card will probably live in my backpack where my GO pass and various transit tickets/tokens live, so the risk there is much less.

I'm only speaking for me, but given a choice between PRESTO and tickets, I'll use PRESTO, once the bugs are out. Given a choice between a credit/debit card and tickets, I'll use tickets. A

I'm not familiar with what occurs when you report a PRESTO card stolen. Do they freeze the card immediately and refund any trips which you state you did not take?

If it is a registered card, it is frozen immediately and you get your balance back. I'm not sure about refunds, though. If it's not a registered card, the balance on the card is not tied to you so there is no way to give you the money back, but at least you are only liable for the money that is on the card.

 

[DavidH]

Let's not forget that Presto is a binding condition of funding for provincial transit projects in the GTA, so we are getting Presto on the TTC... Eventually. They can spin it all they want, legally it has to be Presto AND similar, not OR.

To make this very clear to everyone else, the cost of NOT implementing Presto is somewhere over a billion dollars, simply because ALL of the provincial funding for the Eglinton, Sheppard, Finch, and Scarborough RT replacement will be withdrawn if they do not implement PRESTO. That's ALL of the capital cost coverage other than several hundred million of federal funding for Sheppard.

This is a FAR greater cost than the cost to implement PRESTO, even if the City has to pay for PRESTO all by itself.

And here while they cry poor, they are going to go ahead and implement a separate system that they are NOT required to implement?

 

[DavidH]

Well, this is ugly. Adam Giambrone posted to Twitter:

@kklyeung Presto has not actually started development, that's the problem. Open payments is not a new system, which is why it is good.

PRESTO replied:

@Adam_Giambrone PRESTO is available now on Oakville & Burlington Transit, GO Lakeshore West & 7 TTC stations w/ more coming online this year


It's really sad to see that Giambrone doesn't even know that his system has already implemented PRESTO.

 

[waterloowarrior]

To be fair it could have been a staffer who wrote that message, not Giambrone himself (at least let's hope so )

 

[rbt]

Even assuming that I am able to get it frozen immediately, that means that I will be without my credit card for a week. I was through that earlier this year and while my bank was extremely helpful, it was still a royal pain in the rear.

Perhaps I had unusually good luck with replacing my card in these occassions.