Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[nfitz]

Well, looks like you're "gaming" the system! Each one of those trips should have been a new fare.

3 trips, should have been 3 fares. I was only charged two.

I'm filing a complaint with TTC about that ...

Though on the month, I've had other trips cost more than they should. I think I'm up about 2 trips on the month currently.[/QUOTE]

 

[rbt]

You can't do that? I have been doing that since the beginning of time.

Technically no. Transfers are supposed to be obtained at the point (and time) of payment. The intention is to prevent people from either making multiple trips via a single payment and from sharing transfers with others.

One card per rider + tap-out eliminates a lot of TTC fare-fraud issues.

 

[steveintoronto]

You can't do that? I have been doing that since the beginning of time. (Literally the day Line 2 opened in 1966...... It took a friend and I all morning to go stop by stop and get an opening-day transfer from each station! )

I'm walking distance to Royal York, but take 66 from Old Mill if it's pouring rain. Habitually I don't get a transfer where I get on, but if it's raining when I get to Keele I hop off and get a transfer for the 66. Been doing that for decades.

- Paul

What some readers fail to realize is that taking a transfer at a station where they didn't pay their fare is not an offence. There's merely the missive:

If your trip involves connecting routes and requires a transfer, in subway stations you can get one from the automated transfer machine after you pay your fare and pass through the turnstiles. On buses and streetcars, ask the Operator for a transfer after you pay your fare. Note: Pass holders do not require, and are not entitled to receive, a transfer.

https://ttc.ca/Fares_and_passes/Fare_information/Transfers/index.jsp

There's nothing in the by-laws to back that up. So what is a "fare inspector" able to do? They have no power to seize that transfer, or anything to charge you with.

The present claim that "fare evasion" is what's behind the TTC's falling revenue (and that of almost every other system) is pure supposition. Meantime, GO revenue increases, albeit whether that's comparable as a linear comparison with the GO system expanding so fast is another question.

I certainly won't be riding the TTC as much now. I'll be using GO where my three hour window is not only the policy, it's promoted. And for good reason, it gets them more customers, and it improves the lives of taxpayers who subsidize the system.

[...]
But widespread adoption of Presto at the TTC will result in a few challenges unique to it, thanks to its outdated transfer policy that dates back over 100 years.

On the TTC, transfers are only valid for continuous one-way trips, no stopovers permitted. But most other major systems in Ontario work on the time-based transfer system, that allows for stopovers, even return trips within a 90 minute period (the policy at Grand River Transit) or 120 minute period (permitted in Mississauga, Brampton, York Region, Hamilton and elsewhere). After boarding the first bus, each additional tap with a Presto card will not result in a new fare deducted until the 90 minute or two hour time limit has passed.

The TTC will have a different policy. Paper transfers will still be required for Presto card holders if they intend to transfer to a bus (Presto readers will not be coming to the TTC’s buses for another year); but transfers to connecting streetcars and subway stations can be done by tapping the card on the new vehicle or at the subway turnstile. If it’s a valid transfer under the TTC’s rules, it will not deduct another fare. Here’s the TTC’s Brad Ross (the TTC’s amazing Head of Communications) clarifying this:

But there’s a hiccup:
[...]
Brad Ross ✔ @bradTTC


@skofz @nfitz1 @Sean_YYZ @MetroManTO Can't transfer BACK onto same route. The issue is around short-turns and boarding following car. 1/2

1:13 PM - 4 Dec 2015

• Retweets

If a passenger taps onto another vehicle on the same route, which is quite a common occurrence due to delays, short-turns, and diversions/shuttles, the Presto Card will deduct a second fare.

There is an easy solution: two-hour transfers. It would eliminate confusion, allow for short stopovers and quick two-way trips, and solve such issues such as customers re-boarding streetcars and buses on the same route. Allowing Presto cardholders the same luxury as that enjoyed in Toronto’s suburbs would provide an incentive to passengers paying by cash and token to switch. After all, the TTC already offers a two-hour transfer on St. Clair Avenue, a pilot project left over from the construction of the streetcar right-of-way.

https://seanmarshall.ca/2015/12/04/its-time-for-two-hour-transfers-on-the-ttc/

3 trips, should have been 3 fares. I was only charged two.

Five trips, paid for two. Count again.

 

[LNahid2000]

They could charge you with 'Failure to comply with posted sign 3.13 (a)':

3.13 No person, unless otherwise authorized, shall do any act in contravention of instructions,

a) on any sign erected on TTC property;

 

[steveintoronto]

They could charge you with 'Failure to comply with posted sign 3.13 (a)':

3.13 No person, unless otherwise authorized, shall do any act in contravention of instructions,

a) on any sign erected on TTC property;

Really? Where exactly is it stated that you can't take a transfer? It states "...not valid...". The use of the transfer illegally would be the offence, not taking one. If it were illegal to take one, that would have to be stated.

 

[LNahid2000]

Really? Where exactly is it stated that you can't take a transfer? It states "...not valid...". The use of the transfer illegally would be the offence, not taking one. If it were illegal to take one, that would have to be stated.

Did you not read the big green sign?

 

[crs1026]

Hmmm. I bet there's a good legal argument here, a sign is only a sign when it meets certain criteria - same with the Highway Traffic Act. But if the fare inspector is bound and determined, you're gonna get cited, and who wants the aggravation of going to court to prove them wrong.

I wonder why a fare inspector would make this their priority, instead of, you know, boarding POP vehicles and asking to see proof of payment, like their job description tells them to. I haven't seen the fare inspectors much, so I don't know whether they do things systematically - versus just looking for 'fishing holes' like some radar cops do.

Apart from my perverse circle-trip scenario, I can't see how 'refreshing' a transfer is fare evasion - with fare-paid transfer zones, the perverse routings have been possible for decades.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

People keep talking about this "2-hour" transfer window with Presto.

Here's a good example from this morning, of it not being there.

Trip 1 at 7:37 AM was eastbound on a 506 up to Main Station (and then subway to Broadview). Trip 2 at 9:22 AM, less than 2-hours later, was a new trip heading downtown.

One might have expected this to be a free transfer, if it was simple 2-hour window.

Whether 2-hours is pat of the equation now or not I don't know. Keep in mind, that Presto has been tinkering with the TTC transfer implementation, especially over the last 2 weekends.

 

[steveintoronto]

People keep talking about this "2-hour" transfer window with Presto.

Here's a good example from this morning, of it not being there.

Trip 1 at 7:37 AM was eastbound on a 506 up to Main Station (and then subway to Broadview). Trip 2 at 9:22 AM, less than 2-hours later, was a new trip heading downtown.

One might have expected this to be a free transfer, if it was simple 2-hour window.

Whether 2-hours is pat of the equation now or not I don't know. Keep in mind, that Presto has been tinkering with the TTC transfer implementation, especially over the last 2 weekends.

The window isn't Presto's, it's the carrier's. Thus the different window length for various systems as discussed in Marshall's article that I quoted.

If GO fails to make good on their three hour window when using Presto, phone them up and get it straightened out. I made that point prior when "booking through" at Milton and Square One down to Port Credit Station via Mi-Way.

 

[steveintoronto]

Did you not read the big green sign?

Yes I did. You don't seem to understand the law. Let me repeat myself: "Where exactly does it state that taking a transfer is illegal?" It's the *USE* of that transfer contrary to the by-law (which, btw, I'd have a heyday with in court! Much of it is unenforceable) that is the offence.

 

[nfitz]

The window isn't Presto's, it's the carrier's. Thus the different window length for various systems as discussed in Marshall's article that I quoted.

Yes, I believe we are all aware of that. I was referring to the TTC.

GO for example, uses a 2.5 to 3-hour window. OC Transpo uses a 90-minute window. Etc.

My point is that the stories about the "2-hour TTC window" are utterly not true!

Yes I did. You don't seem to understand the law. Let me repeat myself: "Where exactly does it state that taking a transfer is illegal?" It's the *USE* of that transfer contrary to the by-law (which, btw, I'd have a heyday with in court! Much of it is unenforceable) that is the offence.

The intent of the taking transfers where you start the journey is pretty clear, and oft repeated. The signage is clear. The by-law clearly says that you must do what signs say.

The way you propose using a transfer is quite clearly not as intended by any reasonable person.

Whether an unreasonable person can try and twist the legality in court for their self-centred goals is really another discussion, that should be elsewhere.

 

[steveintoronto]

Yes, I believe we are all aware of that. I was referring to the TTC.

GO for example, uses a 2.5 to 3-hour window. OC Transpo uses a 90-minute window. Etc.

My point is that the stories about the "2-hour TTC window" are utterly not true!

Which stories? There's many of them, some of which you had direct Twitter communications with to Brad Ross:
https://twitter.com/bradTTC/status/672810002688569344?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

Here's one:
nfitz ‏@nfitz1 4 Dec 2015


@bradTTC @skofz @Sean_YYZ @MetroManTO But thanks Brad for the discussion! Hopefully board gets act together on 2-hour transfer on day. 2/2

 

[nfitz]

Which stories? There's many of them, some of which you had direct Twitter communications with to Brad Ross:
https://twitter.com/bradTTC/status/672810002688569344?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

That was a temporary situation for a few weeks last year. It's not the current situation.

Any reasonable person knows the discussion going on now, is not about how transfers were done last year, or on stage coaches in the 1800s.

We all knew it was temporary when those posts were made. Why are you so hell-bent on trying to distort the reality?

 

[steveintoronto]

Why are you so hell-bent on trying to distort the reality?

Reality according to you? You've already left the evidence of your cheating the system, even as you're so quick to make accusations to others. Reality, Fitz, is contingent on consistency.

I made a mistake, evidently, in thinking I had a "two hour window" (sound familiar?) but you already had extensive discussions, which I linked, with Brad Ross. And yet you *still* "cheated", even while pointing at the sliver in others' eyes. And now you get snarky.

I was allowed to board the bus at Cherry Beach by the driver, after showing the transfer and my Presto Card. There was no offence. It was done on a misunderstanding of the rules, and the driver, probably following policy on Presto card holders when there is no machine to tap-on, let me on.

But you repeatedly "gamed" the system in full knowledge that it is "illegal", and then point at others. Hey...

 

[LNahid2000]

Reality according to you? You've already left the evidence of your cheating the system, even as you're so quick to make accusations to others. Reality, Fitz, is contingent on consistency.

I made a mistake, evidently, in thinking I had a "two hour window" (sound familiar?) but you already had extensive discussions, which I linked, with Brad Ross. And yet you *still* "cheated", even while pointing at the sliver in others' eyes. And now you get snarky.

I was allowed to board the bus at Cherry Beach by the driver, after showing the transfer and my Presto Card. There was no offence. It was done on a misunderstanding of the rules, and the driver, probably following policy on Presto card holders when there is no machine to tap-on, let me on.

But you repeatedly "gamed" the system in full knowledge that it is "illegal", and then point at others. Hey...

Wow, you're so accusatory. How exactly did he cheat the system? He just tapped his presto card, which is what he was supposed to do. How else do you propose he pays his fare using presto on a presto enabled route? You on the other hand were going to argue with a driver to use an invalid transfer on a TTC bus.

The policy for presto card holders on routes that are not yet presto enabled is to have the proper fare. It's funny how you berate people who don't follow the highway traffic act, but get all defensive when not following TTC rules.