Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[nfitz]

??? The transfer rules are unchanged. You are stealing rides. There's no 2-hour window currently. I've been surprised which Presto transfers aren't accepted at the 90-minute mark, when I thought I might get a free ride. Though they certainly seem to work at 30 minutes.

 

[steveintoronto]

??? The transfer rules are unchanged. You are stealing rides. There's no 2-hour window currently. I've been surprised which Presto transfers aren't accepted at the 90-minute mark, when I thought I might get a free ride. Though they certainly seem to work at 30 minutes.

That makes it that much more enjoyable in retrospect. Guess I won't be taking the TTC as often.

 

[amnesiajune]

Presto just doesn't have human judgement. A driver knows that it obviously didn't take you an hour and 45 minutes to take the subway from Bloor to Queen, but a computer doesn't until someone teaches it. Given the complexity of the TTC's dumb-as-hell transfer system, nobody would want to try programming that into Presto even if the system had been built for it (which it probably wasn't, since the TTC refused to participate in Presto's design and every other transfer system in the GTA is rational)

 

[steveintoronto]

Presto just doesn't have human judgement. A driver knows that it obviously didn't take you an hour and 45 minutes to take the subway from Bloor to Queen, but a computer doesn't until someone teaches it.

One of the moderators, Sean Marshall, wrote an excellent piece on his "Marshall's Musings" website making the obvious case for the "two hour transfer". I'll find and link it later. It's beyond time that the TTC implemented it system wide, and with Presto, and most of the surrounding suburban systems doing exactly that, time for the TTC to come into the present age.

Cutbacks for the TTC are still on the table, however, even as the Feds dole out the first $500M tranche to them. Bizarre....They've lost me as a frequent customer now. I'm not broke, but be damned if I'm going to buy a fare every half hour when doing a route that ties theirs together.

Penny wise, very Pound stupid. Big Black Lab and I will do even more walking to get to the best parts of our trips together.

 

[nfitz]

Presto just doesn't have human judgement. A driver knows that it obviously didn't take you an hour and 45 minutes to take the subway from Bloor to Queen, but a computer doesn't until someone teaches it.

There might be some teaching going on. I fully thought I'd get a freebie the other day, having taken a streetcar (506+504) to Broadview for an appointment. And then about 90 minutes after my first tap, entering Broadview station to go downtown. But it correctly charged me a free trip.

You are right though - it's an issue. Like not being able to handle short-turns. An operator knows why there are people getting on 506 at Coxwell with 506 transfers ...

Bizarre....They've lost me as a frequent customer now. I'm not broke, but be damned if I'm going to buy a fare every half hour when doing a route that ties theirs together.

What does that mean - "ties theirs together". GO in the middle? If it's a single trip, then it's a single trip. The transfer rules haven't change in a century (whether they should is a separate issue).

 

[amnesiajune]

The TTC used to have a GO Transfer policy that kept transfers valid if you took a train or bus in the middle of your ride. They got rid of it (no clue why), and now they're working on a co-fare like all the other local transit systems have. The city published a report with a lot of recommendations for the TTC, and two-hour transfers was in there but not accepted. I think the only other recommendation they rejected was eliminating the double-fare for downtown express buses.

Anyways, hopefully fare integration is coming soon and all of this (including the stupidity of Go Transit within the city costing more) will go out the window.

 

[LNahid2000]

The TTC used to have a GO Transfer policy that kept transfers valid if you took a train or bus in the middle of your ride. They got rid of it (no clue why), and now they're working on a co-fare like all the other local transit systems have.

This policy is still in place:

https://www.ttc.ca/Fares_and_passes/Fare_information/TTC_Times_2.jsp

 

[steveintoronto]

What does that mean - "ties theirs together". GO in the middle? If it's a single trip, then it's a single trip. The transfer rules haven't change in a century (whether they should is a separate issue).

See:

The TTC used to have a GO Transfer policy that kept transfers valid if you took a train or bus in the middle of your ride. They got rid of it (no clue why), and now they're working on a co-fare like all the other local transit systems have. The city published a report with a lot of recommendations for the TTC, and two-hour transfers was in there but not accepted. I think the only other recommendation they rejected was eliminating the double-fare for downtown express buses.

Anyways, hopefully fare integration is coming soon and all of this (including the stupidity of Go Transit within the city costing more) will go out the window.

And:

This policy is still in place:

https://www.ttc.ca/Fares_and_passes/Fare_information/TTC_Times_2.jsp

So why penalize those with enough incentive to *walk* between the two non-intersecting routes? You pay to go from Point A to Point B within a given period of time. If that involves taking a spaceship to fill in the missing gap, so be it.

Everyone but the TTC seems to realize this, albeit Presto still has problems when doing this on GO, if, for instance, from Square One, instead of taking the 21 to get to Union after getting off an incoming bus (29, ,25, 46 etc) you take the Mi-Way 103 Express to Port Credit, and get back on GO. Presto counts that as two trips, even though it's contiguous through Mi-Way, where you pay the co-fare. It's always cleared up when I phone in, they say they're going to fix it (yeah, right, same happens when crossing Milton from the Milton GO Train to Park and Ride other side of town)(Travelling from Burlington or Oakville to Guelph or K/W, this is a huge shortcut), so now I just buy a paper ticket with my Presto Card, I'm tired of having to correct their shortcomings.

And I repeat: TTC is going to lose as much usage as they gain by being so retrograde on this. The answer is an obvious one, charge by distance, but hey...that would allow total integration of the systems, can't have that...

 

[nfitz]

See:

And:

GO times two is still in effect, and further up, someone did report it working with Presto. Not sure the issue here.

So why penalize those with enough incentive to *walk* between the two non-intersecting routes? You pay to go from Point A to Point B within a given period of time.

Walking transfers are still valid too, even with Presto. See http://www.ttc.ca/Fares_and_passes/Fare_information/Transfers/Walking_Transfers.jsp

TTC is going to lose as much usage as they gain by being so retrograde on this.

As they haven't changed anything, they have nothing to lose. Will they gain ridership by allowing longer walking transfers ... probably not significantly, given the number of people I see who won't even walk a block to get on a more frequent service.

 

[steveintoronto]

GO times two is still in effect, and further up, someone did report it working with Presto. Not sure the issue here.

Neither am I, since it shouldn't be. Technically speaking, they haven't entered various algorithms correctly into the software, they might even have to rewrite some code. But I just buy a paper ticket, arguing with machines is tedious.

Walking transfers are still valid too

Not according to your earlier missive on "single trips". The TTC is now the only system I'm familiar with where walking a segment of the journey you paid for is penalized. The vagaries of Presto besides to tabulate that correctly.

As they haven't changed anything, they have nothing to lose.

They had changed policy with the initial implementation of Presto, and now reversed it, at least in theory. They had the two hour policy in effect (if not on the books) until the beginning of this year.

 

[crs1026]

Presto figures out the TTC-GO-TTC transfer just fine. I do this regularly. The second TTC ride is treated as a transfer, ie no additional fare.

Whether TTC likes it or not, Presto has let the genie out of the bottle on its traditional transfer rules. The two-hour transfer is really already in effect, just not in plain view. I don't consider it "stealing" to take the second ride free - the technology is driving a change that's a bit inconsistent during the transition, but will stabilise once Presto is rolled out completely system-wide. TTC can deal with the under-recovery when it reaches its next fare increase - I don't have any illusion that we will get a freebie out of this over the long term.

- Paul

 

[PinkLucy]

I also don't consider it stealing. I tap in because I am attempting to pay -- if the system deems "no fare", then so be it.

 

[steveintoronto]

The two-hour transfer is really already in effect, just not in plain view. I don't consider it "stealing" to take the second ride free

I also don't consider it stealing. I tap in because I am attempting to pay -- if the system deems "no fare", then so be it.

That's a perfect segue with the two posts, because it brings me to a point on my 'doubt' of being burned quite a few times with Presto (albeit in the end, talking to real people, it was rectified every time).

The instructions on-line at TTC are to "tap your card every time you get on"....which in my skeptical mind, is needless exposure to being charged twice when you have no control over the situation! You have your transfer you got when you paid your fare initially, and it's valid, so why tap on the second time? Your fare is still only good for the two hours from issuance (as I did my walk along the lakefront for forty mins or so). I had half an hour left on the transfer....which, btw, does not display the terms of fare agreed when I tapped on with Presto at the subway station. Producing my card, whether they can read it or not, is de facto validation.

So the question is: (And Paul answered this indirectly, he speaks of his *transfer* as a piece of paper, not an electronic record) Why tap on a second time if you don't need to? I can understand the value for TTC to track fares and client flows, but why put yourself at the mercy of the system glitching, and charging you a second fare?

 

[crs1026]

Why tap on a second time if you don't need to? I can understand the value for TTC to track fares and client flows, but why put yourself at the mercy of the system glitching, and charging you a second fare?

I'm not worried about the potential miscalculation, but I suspect that people who are accustomed to walk-on transferring at fare-paid platforms will find this annoying.

Will the eventual configuration put an end to fare-paid transfer platforms at subway stations? That will be quite a physical change at, say, Bathurst, or Broadview, or Dundas West.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

...I suspect that people who are accustomed to walk-on transferring at fare-paid platforms will find this annoying....- Paul

In retrospect, and my getting accustomed to using Presto on GO, you're right. In analyzing my discomfort when getting on the Cherry St bus at Cherry beach with my valid paper transfer, since the bus had no Presto machine, I was uncomfortable in having to make my case to the driver. It was like having to justify myself, even though she was compliant, although skeptical. Had there been a Presto machine, I could have just tapped on like Lucy states, and trusted the system to charge me or not.

That's a small but important point that can affect a traveller's mood for not only the experience of that one trip, but for following interactions: "Am I going to have an argument with this person in uniform?". One of the greatest advantages (and for some, a social disadvantage) is the isolated driver in the new Flexity streetcars. His/her job is now to just drive, and the patrons have no opportunity to present or be presented with negative interactions.

I may have spoken too soon. Let me rephrase my hesitance to use the TTC for shorter trips: "Until Presto is fleet wide, I hesitate from taking the TTC for the purpose of hopping on and off to interrupt my journey with segments of quality walking".

The TTC has an opportunity to sell the Presto card as being able to do that. Some US SW (and Cdn) transit companies do exactly that by selling time on their systems, and "refreshing transfers" for a nominal fee. It *attracts* riders, just like a day-pass, but tabulated in a modern electronic way.