Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[nfitz]

Reality according to you? You've already left the evidence of your cheating the system, even as you're so quick to make accusations to others. Reality, Fitz, is contingent on consistency.

What are you talking about. I've never cheated the system.

I'm not the one who has been verbally harassing bus drivers to take transfers at places where any reasonable person would agree that they can never be accepted.

...but you already had extensive discussions, which I linked, with Brad Ross.

About the temporary 2-hour transfer that lasted for what - 6 weeks last year? Yes, I did advocate they switch to a 2-hour transfer - but that doesn't mean that they did. TTC Board clearly voted against a 2-hour transfer AFTER that discussion.

And yet you *still* "cheated" ...

Stop lying.

But you repeatedly "gamed" the system in full knowledge that it is "illegal", and then point at others. Hey...

How have I ever gamed the system? What should I have done differently with my Presto Card?

 

[steveintoronto]

He just tapped his presto card, which is what he was supposed to do. How else do you propose he pays his fare using presto on a presto enabled route?

He could have paid cash, "Presto enabled" or not, if "the rules" are so important to him. I don't blame him in the least for not doing so, where the issue is, and you obviously don't get it yourself either, is in being so quick to lambaste others "gaming" the system. You'll note the use of full apostrophes as per "gaming". That's a direct quote.

I didn't dispute my fare getting on the bus at Cherry Street, I was fully prepared to use my Presto Card, had it right in my pocket. I didn't know that bus wouldn't have a Presto reader. First time I've taken it. Is that "gaming" the system if she lets me on as a grace? Perhaps, but it's the readiness of some posters to throw accusations of "gaming" the system when they not only do it themselves, they present the evidence of doing it chronically.

 

[LNahid2000]

He could have paid cash, "Presto enabled" or not, if "the rules" are so important to him. I don't blame him in the least for not doing so, where the issue is, and you obviously don't get it yourself either, is in being so quick to lambaste others "gaming" the system. You'll note the use of full apostrophes as per "gaming". That's a direct quote.

I didn't dispute my fare getting on the bus at Cherry Street, I was fully prepared to use my Presto Card, had it right in my pocket. I didn't know that bus wouldn't have a Presto reader. First time I've taken it. Is that "gaming" the system if she lets me on as a grace? Perhaps, but it's the readiness of some posters to throw accusations of "gaming" the system when they not only do it themselves, they present the evidence of doing it chronically.

You seem to be confusing me with other posters here...I've never used the word "gaming" the system on this forum.

And now you're pleading ignorance regarding buses not having Presto readers. It's your job to have the appropriate fare when riding the TTC.

 

[steveintoronto]

I've never used the word "gaming" the system on this forum.

I never stated or implied that you did. Fitz has, a number of times, and just has again.

 

[rbt]

Apart from my perverse circle-trip scenario, I can't see how 'refreshing' a transfer is fare evasion - with fare-paid transfer zones, the perverse routings have been possible for decades.

As with everything it depends on how you use it.

The typical scenario is that you say pay at Spadina (grab transfer), go to Union (grab transfer on way out), meet with a friend and you now both board a westbound King Streetcar at University using the 2 transfers.


That's pretty damn hard to catch if you allow transfers to be taken at any time from any location.

 

[crs1026]

People keep talking about this "2-hour" transfer window with Presto.

You are quite correct, this isn't part of the TTC's official fare structure.

What we have been exploring is the extent to which Presto has implemented a 2-hour formula as a kludge to a literal implementation of the full transfer table.

I still wonder if accepting the lost revenue from a 2 hour rule would have been cheaper than paying Presto to implement the extended transfer table.

That's the broader point of the discussion, to me anyways. The transfer bit is just an interesting quirk of the old system.

- Paul[/QUOTE]

 

[crs1026]

As with everything it depends on how you use it.

The typical scenario is that you say pay at Spadina (grab transfer), go to Union (grab transfer on way out), meet with a friend and you now both board a westbound King Streetcar at University using the 2 transfers.


That's pretty damn hard to catch if you allow transfers to be taken at any time from any location.

Why wouldn't you just get a second transfer from the original boarding point? Even harder to enforce.

There will always be some flaws in the process. A system that tries to prevent them all would be hugely arcane and not cost effective. The goal should be good enough deterrence to stop the big ticket ones, and leave the holes that are least provident or least likely to be useful to anyone.

- Paul

 

[DSC]

Why wouldn't you just get a second transfer from the original boarding point? Even harder to enforce.

There will always be some flaws in the process. A system that tries to prevent them all would be hugely arcane and not cost effective. The goal should be good enough deterrence to stop the big ticket ones, and leave the holes that are least provident or least likely to be useful to anyone.

- Paul

Exactly: Of course there will always be ways of 'gaming the system' and there will never be 100% chance of an inspector inspecting you. The secret is to balance the cost of inspection (or programing the system) against the fare loss. Just as retail always allows for a "shrinkage" percentage so transit allows for a 'fare evasion %. As the TTC is in the midst of a very complicated move from a 19th century fare media to 20 or 21st century one it is unreasonable to expect there will not be gaps in the current situation. When it's "all Presto" is the time to point out flaws that could be solved in a cost-effective way.

 

[nfitz]

He could have paid cash, "Presto enabled" or not

What the Ford is wrong with you?

There's a huge difference between using Presto as directed and using transfers not as directed.

It's a similar difference between finding a toonie on the sidewalk with no one around, and sticking your hands in someone's pocket and stealing one.

 

[steveintoronto]

I was reading up on this extensively last night, and at Steve Munro's site, lo and behold, Fitz posted this:

nfitz | January 20, 2016 at 9:11 pm

@antonyupward – taps at (about) 9 AM, noon, 1 pm, 3:30 pm, 4 pm, all on 506. Last week I would have expected 3 rides and 2 transfers.

This week I had expected a daily rate cap at $12 – though I had 5*$2.90. Turns out the daily rate cap hasn’t been activated yet. February they are hoping, apparently.

nfitz | January 20, 2016 at 12:17 am

I think that the comments from antonyupward are out of date. The way Presto works on TTC changed over the weekend.

5 rides on the 506 streetcar today cost $2.90 each ($14.50). Last week, the same trips would have cost only $8.70 (3 rides and 2 transfers, because less than 2 hours later).

Yes, some drivers are telling riders they MUST have a transfer, if they use Presto. More poor TTC communication. If you are only going 6 stops, and not planning to transfer, you don’t need a transfer, you can use Presto as POP. Good grief, what do they do when people tap in the back door (which is happening with increasing frequency).

https://stevemunro.ca/2015/12/09/ttc-proposes-new-fare-rules-for-presto-roll-out/

Just a day prior in this forum, Fitz wrote:

How have I ever gamed the system? What should I have done differently with my Presto Card?

That was a temporary situation for a few weeks last year. It's not the current situation.

Any reasonable person knows the discussion going on now, is not about how transfers were done last year, or on stage coaches in the 1800s.

We all knew it was temporary when those posts were made. Why are you so hell-bent on trying to distort the reality?

Speaking of "reality" Fitz, you just can't seem to get your story straight.

You *continue* to "game" the system, even after knowing the situation from the beginning of the year, and accuse others of "gaming" the system while you continue to do it yourself. You just don't get it. It's not a case of you "gaming" the system that's the issue at play here. It's your *avid* glee in accusing others of doing the same thing.

I'm not the one who has been verbally harassing bus drivers to take transfers at places where any reasonable person would agree that they can never be accepted.

Neither am I. I made what I thought to be the case with the transfer to the bus driver, and she was nonchalant, and we ended up have an excellent conversation, the bus was almost empty the distance to Fort York. I had mentioned the word "grace" prior. You'd need a dictionary to know what it means. It was a misunderstanding of policy on my part, and she was very gracious about it, and let me on. I wanted to use my Presto card, not the transfer, from the get go. Had that been possible, I guess, from what I now know, that I would have been charged a new trip on the Presto card.

Obviously you have a problem with that. The problem is yours.

 

[steveintoronto]

Exactly: Of course there will always be ways of 'gaming the system' and there will never be 100% chance of an inspector inspecting you. The secret is to balance the cost of inspection (or programing the system) against the fare loss. Just as retail always allows for a "shrinkage" percentage so transit allows for a 'fare evasion %. As the TTC is in the midst of a very complicated move from a 19th century fare media to 20 or 21st century one it is unreasonable to expect there will not be gaps in the current situation. When it's "all Presto" is the time to point out flaws that could be solved in a cost-effective way.

I forget where I read on that last night (it could have been at Steve Munro's site, maybe the Reddit one) but the cost of fare enforcement is often greater than the loss of evasion.

But the point "a very complicated move from a 19th century fare media to 20 or 21st century one" is very true, and the TTC comes in for a lot of deserved criticism, not that there isn't sympathy for a difficult task, but they seem to squander that sympathy. I went searching to find when the 'Date of Complete Conversion' is expected to happen. No shortage of expected dates, the consensus seeming to be end of next year. But then it's also vague as to whether or not/when the 'tap-on/tap-off' process comes into play. I truly hope it does, as much as it will be difficult for a lot of plebes to adapt, but it's the only way to get fare integration across the region on a linear basis such that TTC, GO et al can integrate travel *at the same cost per distance* such that it allows seamless movement across the region, and *passenger choice* as to how they wish to do it. The other 905 region carriers will also have to do same. Once Presto is fully implemented to the same algorithm for all, the net benefit of using the technology will provide much more efficient ways of getting there, and healthy competition between carriers, even private ones (as is the case in London, UK, and other cities) where Oyster is a standard platform used by private bus operators, public domain London trains, and private rail companies in the Greater London Area. If the TTC is the "better way" then private competition also using integrated Presto travel, will garner the greatest number of riders. Uber is more than just a different way of supplying taxi service. It's a different way of delivering service, even as Uber itself is now facing even more efficient competition in delivery.

Using Presto as a single tap-on flat fare enabler is like using a computer to dig holes with. The taxpayer has invested a small fortune in Presto. It's time to realize that investment in the fullest sense.

 

[LNahid2000]

What's wrong with you? You're pretty much stalking nfitz on Twitter and other websites, and then posting those things here to try and win an argument. When it's clear you fare evaded on the 121.

 

[steveintoronto]

What's wrong with you? You're pretty much stalking nfitz on Twitter and other websites, and then posting those things here to try and win an argument. When it's clear you fare evaded on the 121.

Never used Twitter, never intend to. What's wrong with you? I Google to find information, and post the results when necessary.

I'm told by staff that Fitz has a record of being banned at this site. I "stalk" him? lol...best you check under your bed for Black Helicopters...

When it's clear you fare evaded on the 121.

You apparently have no concept of what the term "evade" means. The driver let me on the bus as a grace due to my apparent misunderstanding. She did exactly as any good ambassador for a system should do. I had an overheated dog who wouldn't have made it up to King St, I presented my Presto card, and I had no change on me. I hadn't expected to have needed to get on that bus, but it was there waiting when I got to Cherry St.

How is that "evading a fare"? Again, you point fingers at others, while boasting about doing it yourself, and then wonder why you get your finger broken.

 

[nfitz]

Speaking of "reality" Fitz, you just can't seem to get your story straight.

You *continue* to "game" the system, even after knowing the situation from the beginning of the year, and accuse others of "gaming" the system while you continue to do it yourself. You just don't get it. It's not a case of you "gaming" the system that's the issue at play here. It's your *avid* glee in accusing others of doing the same thing.

Following TTC's instructions to tap on after every transfer is not gaming the system.

You quoted me saying I didn't pay $12 for a day pass, but instead paid $14.50 ... how do you think this is gaming the system.

I had the same again yesterday. 5 rides for $14.50 (so no sign of this working yet).

 

[LNahid2000]

Which stories? There's many of them, some of which you had direct Twitter communications with to Brad Ross:
https://twitter.com/bradTTC/status/672810002688569344?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

Here's one:
nfitz ‏@nfitz1 4 Dec 2015


@bradTTC @skofz @Sean_YYZ @MetroManTO But thanks Brad for the discussion! Hopefully board gets act together on 2-hour transfer on day. 2/2

Never used Twitter, never intend to. What's wrong with you? I Google to find information, and post the results when necessary.

You seem to have a bad memory, unless you're arguing technicalities again.

How is that "evading a fare"? Again, you point fingers at others, while boasting about doing it yourself, and then wonder why you get your finger broken.

I don't use the TTC, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.