Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[nfitz]

Last time Presto was down (both autoload and web loads are not instant and can completely fail on negative balance cards) I bought a paper ticket from the bus driver at full cost then spend 30 minutes in the Presto support office at Union (mid-trip) getting it fixed then calling to get a refund on the double-fare paid due to blowing the 2-hour travel window getting the first problem fixed.

Autoloads are instant. When you tap on or off, and if you next tap will put you below the minimum, it automatically adds the new money ... you see it flash on the machine. And when you tap a few minutes later on a different device, the balance has been adjusted.

It's pretty easy to go through your $20 autoload balance which might be more than enough for your commute but if you take a special trip, perhaps to the airport, you can empty your card rapidly. Of course, autoload only works for frequent users. That 2 to 3 week vacation is long enough that the load will be ignored when you return leaving you with an empty or negative balance card when you try to board the GO bus back home.

It doesn't work like that. I'm an infrequent user, and autoload works fine. You can't go negative ... given the minimum balance is set to $20, it's very difficult to go under $25.

Most fare systems have problems but the Presto frontend (what the customer deals with) still feels very young for a platform which will be completely out of date in 10 years. The backend seems fine, and thankfully that'll be portable to a new frontend mechanism.

Agreed. They should never have given the contract to Accenture. Why it didn't got to a contractor with actual experience is beyond me. Presumably because it went to the low-bidder, because the other bidders KNEW how much it would really cost. But then they are locked into Accenture, and they of course get all the change-orders.

I don't use PRESTO often, so I'm not going to set up autoload.

And I've heard issues about autoload anyways.

I've never had an issue. I also use it sporadically. I might use it 10 times in a month some months, but then not at all for 2 months. And I keep a back-up card in case I'm travelling with someone from out-of-town, which only get's used once every few months. Autoload is great on that one too. So, there's $20 sitting on the card ... but when you arrive at the station, and you see a 15-minute line-up for the ticket machine (let along the ticket counter), it's worth it.

 

[rbt]

Autoloads are instant. When you tap on or off, and if you next tap will put you below the minimum, it automatically adds the new money ... you see it flash on the machine. And when you tap a few minutes later on a different device, the balance has been adjusted.

It doesn't work like that. I'm an infrequent user, and autoload works fine. You can't go negative ... given the minimum balance is set to $20, it's very difficult to go under $25.

Glad to hear they fixed those issues; I had kinda given up on them when I went through that shit.


That said, if autoload can be instant (which I assume requires the backend to monitor and charge your credit card and push the update), why the fuck can't web loads also be instant (which requires the backend to charge your card and push the update)?

 

[nfitz]

Glad to hear they fixed those issues; I had kinda given up on them when I went through that shit.

I've had autoloads since day one. I don't think they themselves were a problem. Though they were an absolute nightmare to get set up initially ... now they are just a pain. (changing the 7-day requirement to tap on after you set it up to 30 days really helps).

That said, if autoload can be instant (which I assume requires the backend to monitor and charge your credit card and push the update), why the fuck can't web loads also be instant (which requires the backend to charge your card and push the update)?

I'm not quite sure how autoloads work. There's two possibilities.

• One that the autoload info is in the card, so it automatically triggers when the machine detects the criteria already in the card, and no communication is required to the backend (the actual credit/debit card transaction get's processed later on, when the machine is next in contact with the base.
  
  
• The second possibility is that each machine has a record of ALL the current Autload contracts, and can process the autload without talking to the backend (except after the fact).

The first seems the most likely, but I confess I don't know.

Either way doesn't require any communication with the backend.

The way web loads work, is that all outstanding web loads are communicated to ALL devices, and if the device encounters the correct card, it then does the load. This is a significant advance on other cards like Oyster where you have to tell them which machine you'll be tapping into to finish the web load - and it has to be a station rather than a vehicle.

However all devices can't instantaneously be updated. Originally they were all updated every 24 hours, and the vehicles had to be done manually. Now they are down to every 4 hours, and I think they've managed to add communications to the vehicles (at least for some agencies).

You can't be in a situation where the device has to check with the backend every time it sees a card, to check what to do ... it won't process fast enough. It might be fine for a quiet spot where you can take a couple of seconds, but imagine everyone tapping off or on at Union.

 

[rbt]

I've had autoloads since day one. I don't think they themselves were a problem.

We had very different experiences. I abandoned autoloads within the first couple of months. Actually tossed that card in the trash when it hit negative balance yet again and haven't tried autoload with the newer cards (Gen 2 from Ottawa or recent Gen 1 from Toronto). I tended to take the bigger fare trips (Niagara region and Barrie) with a stack of TTC trips (Bloor/Union).

Speaking of which, I should empty and return one of those. Do the Union machines take Ottawa cards yet? I know Ottawa buses take Toronto cards now.

Though they were an absolute nightmare to get set up initially ... now they are just a pain. (changing the 7-day requirement to tap on after you set it up to 30 days really helps).

I'm not quite sure how autoloads work. There's two possibilities.

• One that the autoload info is in the card, so it automatically triggers when the machine detects the criteria already in the card, and no communication is required to the backend (the actual credit/debit card transaction get's processed later on, when the machine is next in contact with the base.
  
• The second possibility is that each machine has a record of ALL the current Autload contracts, and can process the autload without talking to the backend (except after the fact).

Both of these negate the primary reason for carrying a balance on the card (pre-charge the customer), rather than simply storing payment information centrally and charging after the fact.

If they trust the persons payment information is still viable (has a positive balance) for an autoload (if it isn't the Presto Card just got free money), then why not just charge the exact amount (perhaps with a $10 minimum) after travel has occurred instead? If they want assurance of funds, keep a $20 hold on the card at all times (debit or credit).

From what you describe, a round-trip from Kitchener to Union would take $10 three times from an autoload instead of a single charge of roughly $27 for the exact price of the trip at the end of the day.

If autoloads do not instantly authorize the CC for a charge, then what's the excuse other than interest-free loans and lost balances (forgotten cards) for having a Bank of Presto? I expect retail to milk their customers which gift cards effectively do; I have different expectations for the government with regards to it's constituents.

 

[nfitz]

We had very different experiences. I abandoned autoloads within the first couple of months. Actually tossed that card in the trash when it hit negative balance yet again and haven't tried autoload with the newer cards (Gen 2 from Ottawa or recent Gen 1 from Toronto). I tended to take the bigger fare trips (Niagara region and Barrie) with a stack of TTC trips (Bloor/Union).

Did the Autoload ever work? If it didn't, I suspect it wasn't set up properly. Once it was properly set up, it should keep working. The set-up is overly complex. It shouldn't be a function of the card ... my main card is so old, it's going to expire soon.

Speaking of which, I should empty and return one of those. Do the Union machines take Ottawa cards yet? I know Ottawa buses take Toronto cards now.

All cards work everywhere now.

If they trust the persons payment information is still viable (has a positive balance) for an autoload (if it isn't the Presto Card just got free money), then why not just charge the exact amount (perhaps with a $10 minimum) after travel has occurred instead?

Because it's then rife for abuse. I suppose they could though ... and that's how it would work if you use a debit or credit card, which Presto will soon let you do.

From what you describe, a round-trip from Kitchener to Union would take $10 three times from an autoload instead of a single charge of roughly $27 for the exact price of the trip at the end of the day.

No, because the minimum load is $20, and you have to have a minimum amount of $20 (which in reality becomes $25, as they always reload when the following tap would bring you under $25, not the current tap). So if you were tap off after a $27 trip, it would have previously deducted about $5 when you tapped on, and you would have still got at least $25 on your card ... and then it would add $20 to $45 and remove $22, leaving you a balance of $23.

Next time you tap on, it would deduct the $5.20 minimum and would reload again to about $38.

If you are really doing $27 non-stop trips, then you should probably have a higher minimum load than $20. But Kitchener to Union is only $14.49 not $27. As far as I know the most expensive non-stop trip is Oshawa GO to Niagara Falls VIA (by rail in summer) which is $23.54 ... it might be possible to screw up the card with that trip! You can have more expensive trips (Peterborough to Niagara Falls for example), but you'd tap off and on again in Oshawa, allowing a load to occur if necessary.

If autoloads do not instantly authorize the CC for a charge, then what's the excuse other than interest-free loans and lost balances (forgotten cards) for having a Bank of Presto? I expect retail to milk their customers which gift cards effectively do; I have different expectations for the government with regards to it's constituents.

It minimizes bank transaction charges to Presto. I'd assume that when the do activate credit and debit cards, it won't be quite as cheap as using a dedicated Presto card, given the extra bank charges and incrased fraud. That would be the theory anyway ...

 

[TOareaFan]

At the College subway station a presto card deducts $2.70 while tapping a visa card deducts a full single fare.

 

[nfitz]

At the College subway station a presto card deducts $2.70 while tapping a visa card deducts a full single fare.

Does the credit card still work? College and Dundas were the trial locations for this, but I didn't know if it still worked.

Probably the shape of things to come ... but nothing official has come out. Heck, TTC still charges $2.70 using a child's Prestocard according to their website (I should test that one day with my child's card ...)

 

[muller877]

Heck, TTC still charges $2.70 using a child's Prestocard according to their website (I should test that one day with my child's card ...)

I would assume the new gates will have different lights to show which fare is being deducted so that they can monitor if anyone is using a child/senior/student fare illegally.

Alternatively, there will be a centralized control that monitors fare collection via CCTV and electronic communication of which fare is being paid (which ideally is done offshore to minimize cost)

This can also be done for LRT and bus boarding to make sure there is no fare evasion. London can tell you how many seats are available in the upper deck of busses....electronically monitoring fare evasion shouldn't be that difficult.

 

[nfitz]

I would assume the new gates will have different lights to show which fare is being deducted so that they can monitor if anyone is using a child/senior/student fare illegally.

Ultimately ... not sure about the temporary machines. And as they are currently charging $2.70 if you use a child's card ... then there is no crime for an adult to use them.

Obviously it will be when the final system is in place ... and then you risk a fare inspector.

 

[Electrify]

In York Region, all of the buses, including high floor buses which will likely be retired within a few years, have Presto installed. I don't understand why this can happen, yet the TTC/Metrolinx is so hesitant about installing it on older streetcars? Will the New Flyers D40LFs, Orion VII First Generation, and hybrids be getting Presto, or are they waiting for these buses to be retired before implementing it on the surface network?

 

[nfitz]

In York Region, all of the buses, including high floor buses which will likely be retired within a few years, have Presto installed. I don't understand why this can happen, yet the TTC/Metrolinx is so hesitant about installing it on older streetcars? Will the New Flyers D40LFs, Orion VII First Generation, and hybrids be getting Presto, or are they waiting for these buses to be retired before implementing it on the surface network?

TTC has said Metrolinx currently has promised to fully install Presto on all existing buses and streetcars by 2017. So presumably that includes all those models, including some CLRVs.

 

[1overcosc]

In York Region, all of the buses, including high floor buses which will likely be retired within a few years, have Presto installed. I don't understand why this can happen, yet the TTC/Metrolinx is so hesitant about installing it on older streetcars? Will the New Flyers D40LFs, Orion VII First Generation, and hybrids be getting Presto, or are they waiting for these buses to be retired before implementing it on the surface network?

York still has high-floor buses? I thought the province imposed a deadline of December 31, 2013 for all transit buses in the province to be low-floor.

 

[nfitz]

York still has high-floor buses? I thought the province imposed a deadline of December 31, 2013 for all transit buses in the province to be low-floor.

Why would there be any regulations on buses being low-floor? I thought regulations were based on accessibility rather than specifying the design. Doesn't TTC still have some high-floor buses? GO still buys high-floor buses.

Surely Presto works the same if they are high-floor or low-floor?

 

[mpd618]

Why would there be any regulations on buses being low-floor? I thought regulations were based on accessibility rather than specifying the design. Doesn't TTC still have some high-floor buses? GO still buys high-floor buses.

Surely Presto works the same if they are high-floor or low-floor?

GO Transit buys high-floor coaches with wheelchair ramps, as far as I know. The 20-year-old high-floor city buses some agencies still have don't have ramps. Presto obviously works just fine on either.

 

[BMO]

Every day I use Presto at Finch and have to pay a token or cash to go home. So annoying, but still cheaper than if I had to buy a metropass since I never use the system outside of commuting. I don't get why the subway stations don't all have them at least. Each station has access to infrastructure that would be required for presto machines to work. #Frustrating