Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[nfitz]

got you.
The fact that Montreal with 2/3 of Toronto's population has a high ridership says something about the layout of the TTC subways.

Personally there's something very bizarre with Montreal's reported subway ridership. It's consistently reported to be slightly higher than Toronto, despite having the same number of stations, a very similar relative configuration, slightly less rolling stock (in terms of passenger capacity), and less frequent service.

When I'm there, it doesn't seem any more crowded at peak, and a lot less crowded off-peak and weekends.

In Montreal the 4 subways seem to cover a larger area, while the University and Yonge line downtown part overlap too much

Why do you keep telling such whoppers about other places? It has almost the same number of stations .. the coverage can't be that different; Montreal does have an advantage of higher population density in the central area (though they are losing that with the number of highrises that Toronto continues to build everywhere). The distance from the Green line to the Orange line in downtown Montreal is almost identical to distance between Yonge and University. How is that bad in Toronto and good in Montreal?

 

[doady]

got you.
The fact that Montreal with 2/3 of Toronto's population has a high ridership says something about the layout of the TTC subways. In Montreal the 4 subways seem to cover a larger area, while the University and Yonge line downtown part overlap too much, and lines probably shouldn't have followed a straight line. It is definitely not the most efficient layout give the distance of tracks.

Are you seriously suggesting Unviersity and Yonge south of Bloor don't have enough ridership?

There's nothing wrong with the layout. The distance between Yonge and University is the same as the distance between De Maisonneuve and Viger, around 600m. There is no difference.

 

[nfitz]

And the TTC Presto implementation is not $700M.

Actually, it's probably closer to $800 million now.

It most certainly is not! I seem to recall the estimates were in the $200 million range. TTC is paying $47 million - http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Com...upplementary_Reports/Framework_for_Agreem.pdf - with Ontario and Canada paying the rest ($47 million from Canada, and the rest from Ontario).

And that's what has taken so long ... finding a solution that would work under TTC's $47 million budget, given how grossly underfunded it is. I'm sure transit agencies that aren't so grossly underfunded can do better. I don't think any agency in Canada or the USA funds their transit less per rider than Toronto (I'll ignore third-world Asian countries ... despots, dictators, and corrupt monarchs don't tend to publish their financial data ...)

Of course, covering the entire region is common for this kind of thing whether single or multiple agencies.

Is it? Does any SmartCard cover the same number of agencies that Presto does? Oyster perhaps with National Rail - but even then I'm not sure. Many just cover one, or a few. The Opus card in Montrael covers a few (but not as many), however the system is much more limited, and I think is restricted to only being activated for 3 different systems at a time - and you have to prepurchase tickets or pases for each one - you can't just load it with cash. Seoul's is quite impressive, but again, I don't think it covers as many different agencies/companies. Tokyo too I would assume ... but I've never been there, so I won't comment.

 

[nfitz]

There's nothing wrong with the layout. The distance between Yonge and University is the same as the distance between De Maisonneuve and Viger, around 600m. There is no difference.

Ah, but it's not Toronto, so it's obviously superior! LOL!

 

[ksun]

Ah, I was thinking Canada/USA ... the definition of North America does vary.

show me a source where it says North America doesn't include Mexico. Any.
"US and Canada" is not a geographically concept. It is not a country, not a continent, not even a currency union. You either rank Toronto in Canada, or in the real North America, or the Americas, or the world. The ranking as nth in US+Canada doesn't make any sense.

 

[nfitz]

show me a source where it says North America doesn't include Mexico. Any.

How about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America#Usage_of_the_term "The term North America maintains various definitions in accordance with location and context. In English, North America may be used to refer to the United States and Canada together. Alternatively, usage sometimes includes Greenland and Mexico ...". This is referenced to Fowlers Modern English Usage (2004) "the term 'North America' is mostly used to mean the United States and Canada together. Countries to the south of the United States are described as being in Central America (Mexico, Nicaragua, etc.) or South America (Brazil, Argentina, etc.)."

It's a common enough usage ... I'm surprised you haven't heard it before. I should have said Canada/USA to be clear ... I'm simply trying to point out that the TTC website is not incorrect.

Your turn ... find a city with 15 letters, beginning with an F, ending with a G, and with 3 different vowels.

"US and Canada" is not a geographically concept. It is not a country, not a continent, not even a currency union. You either rank Toronto in Canada, or in the real North America, or the Americas, or the world. The ranking as nth in US+Canada doesn't make any sense.

Are your frigging kidding me? I can't refer to Canada and the USA? Better not tell US Immigration ...

 

[rbt]

Is it? Does any SmartCard cover the same number of agencies that Presto does? Oyster perhaps with National Rail - but even then I'm not sure. Many just cover one, or a few. The Opus card in Montrael covers a few (but not as many), however the system is much more limited, and I think is restricted to only being activated for 3 different systems at a time - and you have to prepurchase tickets or pases for each one - you can't just load it with cash. Seoul's is quite impressive, but again, I don't think it covers as many different agencies/companies. Tokyo too I would assume ... but I've never been there, so I won't comment.

CharlieCard is available on 10 different systems (MBTA obviously, though they never did finish the commuter rail or ferry system). That's gotta be nearly as complex negotiation/contract wise as Presto. Their technical implementation is much simpler though as, IMHO, Metrolinx/Presto chose to be complicated where it wasn't necessary.

MTA (New York) is deceptive because despite running under a single name it's made up of a number of different departments with separate funding and debt loads; also integration with Jersy's PATH system among other things. The negotiation would have been there but hidden from public view.

Presto is a challenge but not the only example of a politically difficult card in North America.

Salt Lake/Provo's card was probably the easiest to implement because they simply let Mastercard do it and it covers all modes (bus, LRT, commuter rail) seamlessly including transfers between the 3.

 

[nfitz]

Many are deceptive because of common branding of the upper layer. Boston Mass T metro and commuter rail are just as independent from eachother as GO and TTC are, despite a common brand. Internally, integration is like pulling teeth as each has a separate budget which they must protect.

Sure ... but it's not just GO and TTC. It's designed to simultaneously handle GO, TTC, HSR, Brampton Transit, Burlington Transit, Milton Transit, OC Transpo, MiWay, YRT, Oakville Transit, DRT, and STO. That's 13 different agencies (once Milton is finally onboard). And there's discussions to expand it to Guelph, Barrie, Niagara Falls, Niagara Region, St. Catharines, and even GRT (well they are discussing it yet again ...). That's 19 different agencies ... 20 if you count UP Express. And no indication that it couldn't handle a lot more. Remember that if you use 7 different transit systems in Montreal, you need THREE different Opus cards (not sure if there are 7 different transit agencies on Opus though ...).

What other cards handle so many different agencies? Oyster maybe ...

MTA (New York) is pretty similar both internally with multiple fully independent departments and with using the Metrocard on things like Jersy's PATH system.

It's not a contactless smart card though ... at least not last time I used one.

 

[ksun]

LOL. "In English, North America may be used to refer to the United States and Canada together" -- I don't even know what it means. Does that mean English North America, but Quebec definitely shouldn't be part of it. Or does that mean this concept is only true when one speaks English?

There is no point in lingering on this trivial detail, but Canadians really should stop say North America when they only mean US plus Canada. It happens too often. We put our cities in the context of either the country, or the continent, or the world. To selectively drag one country in and exclude others makes no sense.

"Central America" and "the Caribbeans" are part of North America also. There is no ambiguity about that.

You can certainly refer to "Canada and the US", just not "North America". There is simply no term for this "US+Canada" concept. Maybe you can create one.

 

[nfitz]

LOL. "In English, North America may be used to refer to the United States and Canada together" -- I don't even know what it means. Does that mean English North America, but Quebec definitely shouldn't be part of it. Or does that mean this concept is only true when one speaks English?

Are you deliberately choosing to ignore the punctuation? ... In English ... as in the English language.

You can certainly refer to "Canada and the US", just not "North America". There is simply no term for this "US+Canada" concept. Maybe you can create one.

I can refer to it, in any way I choose. The language is defined by usage.

 

[rbt]

Sure ... but it's not just GO and TTC. It's designed to simultaneously handle GO, TTC, HSR, Brampton Transit, Burlington Transit, Milton Transit, OC Transpo, MiWay, YRT, Oakville Transit, DRT, and STO. That's 13 different agencies (once Milton is finally onboard). And there's discussions to expand it to Guelph, Barrie, Niagara Falls, Niagara Region, St. Catharines, and even GRT (well they are discussing it yet again ...).

Charliecard works on MBTA, MetroWest Regional Transit Authority, Brockton Area Transit Authority, Lowll Regional Transit Authority, Merrimack Valley Regional Transit Authority, Montachusett Regional Transit Authority, Worcester Regional Transit Authority, Cape Ann Transportation Authority, Southeastern Regional Transit Authority, Cape Cod Regional Transit Authority, and their bicycle infrastructure.

Yes, Presto is a bigger political/contractual hassle but not orders of magnitude more challenging. Going from 10 to 20 is far easier than going from 3 to 10 simply because a process will have been established.

I'm using Boston as an example because it started in 2006, roughly the same time as Presto and isn't wildly different in scale. Better comparisons may be available.

It's not a contactless smart card though ... at least not last time I used one.

CharlieCard (stored value card) is contactless; CharlieTicket (single ride ticket) is magstripe. Our equivalents would be Presto and the GO paper ticket or various local agency transfers.

Contactless actually makes it easier as NFC is an extremely well understood technology available from a wide variety of vendors and has been for some time now. Magstripe equipment is finicky, not reliable in varying weather, and rapidly being deprecated by most vendors of this type of equipment.

 

[nfitz]

Charliecard works on MBTA, MetroWest Regional Transit Authority, Brockton Area Transit Authority, Lowll Regional Transit Authority, Merrimack Valley Regional Transit Authority, Montachusett Regional Transit Authority, Worcester Regional Transit Authority, Cape Ann Transportation Authority, Southeastern Regional Transit Authority, Cape Cod Regional Transit Authority, and their bicycle infrastructure.

And yet 8 years after they started rolling it out, they still haven't been able to get them to work with the MBTA commuter trains, which they were supposed to have had going in 2008. Nor are they accepted on MBTA paratransit.

Isn't this rather a poor example, given the slow rollout, and the failures?

 

[rbt]

And yet 8 years after they started rolling it out, they still haven't been able to get them to work with the MBTA commuter trains, which they were supposed to have had going in 2008. Nor are they accepted on MBTA paratransit.

Yep. They gave up on commuter trains a long time ago due to cost ($50M to $70M) and relatively low ridership and instead introduced electronic ticketing. Many of their stations (they have a ton of 'em) only get couple hundred customers per day. Heck, the Fairmount line only carried 700 customers round trips per day in 2012. Spending that kind of money on a stored value card seemed silly when they could just write a phone app instead which frequent users use; so that's what they did. No tap necessary as it's a POP system.

Isn't this rather a poor example, given the slow rollout, and the failures?

If that's what you want to take from it, you can do that. If I was Presto management, I'd be taking a really hard look at why Boston's system came in at a much lower value despite a total overhaul of all ticketing from all systems.

Actually, as an infrequent user I prefer Boston's commuter rail ticketing system over any stored value card. You can board the train last second as the doors close and pull out your phone and buy the ticket via the app after the fact. It also doesn't require giving the agency an interest free loan; credit cards are remembered and charged at the time of the transaction.

I've done something similar with VIA (bought a ticket while standing in line) when I forgot my wallet at home and hadn't purchased a ticket in advance.

 

[nfitz]

Yep. They gave up on commuter trains a long time ago due to cost ($50M to $70M) and relatively low ridership and instead introduced electronic ticketing. Many of their stations (they have a ton of 'em) only get couple hundred customers per day. Heck, the Fairmount line only carried 700 customers round trips per day in 2012. Spending that kind of money on a stored value card seemed silly when they could just write a phone app instead which frequent users use; so that's what they did. No tap necessary as it's a POP system.



If that's what you want to take from it, you can do that. If I was Presto management, I'd be taking a really hard look at why Boston's system came in at a much lower value despite a total overhaul of all ticketing from all systems.

Actually, as an infrequent user I prefer Boston's commuter rail ticketing system over any stored value card. You can board the train last second as the doors close and pull out your phone and buy the ticket via the app after the fact. It also doesn't require giving the agency an interest free loan; credit cards are remembered and charged at the time of the transaction.

I've done something similar with VIA (bought a ticket while standing in line) when I forgot my wallet at home and hadn't purchased a ticket in advance.

You mean you actually have to do a separate transaction everytime you ride? You can't just tap your phone against something!?! How do they handle transfers? MBTA rail passengers aren't that insignificant ... they have 34 million riders a year ... that's half the ridership that GO has.

TTC is paying $47 million for Presto. I doubt MBTA paid half of that, despite having about half the ridership that TTC has.

 

[P23]

It is, depending on which definition of North America you use.

There's only one definition.