King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[steveintoronto]

I'm not sure you are paying attention. It's been made very clear, that they are not going to be fencing or gating King Street!

Where exactly? In your head? I asked you to provide reference prior, you have provided none save for a link that provides no reference on the matter.

Meantime, for Amnesia, again, as provided by 44:

 

[Rainforest]

The potential conflict between the streetcars and jaywalking pedestrians should not be ignored.

I don't know what the best solution might be. We can't close the central section of King for streetcars and make it pedestrian-only; this streetcar route is too important. It is unlikely that the streetcar line can be tunneled, because of conflicts with utilities and the Path, and I read that there are some geological features in the King corridor that make it difficult for tunneling.

Fencing off the streetcar lanes would be visually intrusive.

Maybe, brighly colored lanes (~ 40 cm on each side of the tracks) plus some sort of automated detection of jaywalkers resulting in warning sounds and automatic reduction of the approaching streetcar speed can do the trick?

 

[Rainforest]

Btw, Dundas 505 streetcar is a route that might benefit from tunneling a short central section. In my observations, the line runs smoothly for most of its length, except in the central section from University to approximately Victoria. In the central section, it gets stuck very often.

A tunnel under that part of Dundas should be easier to build than a tunnel under King.

 

[steveintoronto]

The potential conflict between the streetcars and jaywalking pedestrians should not be ignored.

I don't know what the best solution might be. We can't close the central section of King for streetcars and make it pedestrian-only; this streetcar route is too important. It is unlikely that the streetcar line can be tunneled, because of conflicts with utilities and the Path, and I read that there are some geological features in the King corridor that make it difficult for tunneling.

Fencing off the streetcar lanes would be visually intrusive.

Maybe, brightly colored lanes (~ 40 cm on each side of the tracks) plus some sort of automated detection of jaywalkers resulting in warning sounds and automatic reduction of the approaching streetcar speed can do the trick?

Agreed, some compromise must be reached as a balance between effective separation and a physical barrier, albeit the latter may be unavoidable. A grass median would be nice, but there just isn't the space to allow it. What has occurred to me is a green (growing) fence beside the the tracks on the non-vehicle lane side, where space is greater to do it, and pedestrians are at a much higher risk of wandering into streetcars. A discussion has to be had on this, as to just do this as the Bourke centre section in Melbourne means constant conflict and slow speed limits. A curb the vehicle side is a pre-requisite.

 

[amnesiajune]

Btw, Dundas 504 streetcar is a route that might benefit from tunneling a short central section. In my observations, the line runs smoothly for most of its length, except in the central section from University to approximately Victoria. In the central section, it gets stuck very often.

A tunnel under that part of Dundas should be easier to build than a tunnel under King.

Ridership is a factor too though. Even if a tunnel under King costs 50% more to build, it still has a lower cost per passenger since the 504's daily ridership is twice as much as the 505's.

 

[Rainforest]

Ridership is a factor too though. Even if a tunnel under King costs 50% more to build, it still has a lower cost per passenger since the 504's daily ridership is twice as much as the 505's.

That's true, but the Dundas ridership might grow as the downtown density expands outwards. Plus, the reliability itself might be an issue that limits the ridership.

If a streetcar tunnel under a section of Dundas is desirable at all, then it should be cheaper to build it before the Path expands north.

 

[nfitz]

Where exactly? In your head? I asked you to provide reference prior, you have provided none save for a link that provides no reference on the matter.

It's a completely unrealistic suggestion. So would be putting windmills along King Street - but I bet no one could find any references that won't happen either. Because people don't create references about such unrealistic things.

I have asked you how often and where you cross King Street. That's something you could choose to answer easily. But you haven't. So don't get your back up that I can't prove something that no professional would ever propose, if you can't even answer a simple question.

And why compare this to Queens Quay. It's not comparable. At Queens Quay, the pedestrians are frequently right next to the tracks. This isn't true at King, where the tracks are in the centre of the street, not the edge.

You've also not been able to describe why the future situation on King will be worse than the current situation, where people do cross easily and safely all the time mid-block.

Btw, Dundas 504 streetcar is a route that might benefit from tunneling a short central section. In my observations, the line runs smoothly for most of its length, except in the central section from University to approximately Victoria. In the central section, it gets stuck very often.

I think you mean that the 505 Dundas might benefit from tunnelling.

And it might. Though it also might benefit from restricting cars to the one lane, so the streetcars don't back up in traffic. That would be a much cheaper thing to try, before spending a billion+ on a tunnel.

 

[Rainforest]

I think you mean that the 505 Dundas might benefit from tunnelling.

Yeah, 505 of course. Don't know what clicked in my head. Will go back and fix it.

And it might. Though it also might benefit from restricting cars to the one lane, so the streetcars don't back up in traffic. That would be a much cheaper thing to try, before spending a billion+ on a tunnel.

The road strip in question contains a lot of small restaurants, cars are parked in front of them at all times. I believe the street parking is allowed most of the day, except in the morning rush. Therefore, it is impossible to restrict the car traffic to one lane.

Something similar to the King Pilot might work on Dundas too. Cars would allowed to enter the street and reach those restaurants and other shops, but the street would be closed to through traffic reducing the total amount of cars.

 

[nfitz]

The road strip in question contains a lot of small restaurants, cars are parked in front of them at all times. I believe the street parking is allowed most of the day, except in the morning rush. Therefore, it is impossible to restrict the car traffic to one lane.

Lots of small stores and street parking? I see the bit from Bay to Victoria all the time, which I think is the worst bit - and I don't recall either street parking or small stores. Most of the car drivers, don't look like they are there to do shopping, and the foot traffic is huge. Gosh, would anyone really drive to a store on Dundas right downtown, and expect to park in front of a restaurant?

 

[steveintoronto]

And why compare this to Queens Quay. It's not comparable. At Queens Quay, the pedestrians are frequently right next to the tracks. This isn't true at King, where the tracks are in the centre of the street, not the edge.

Here's the concept approved:

Those green spaces next to the tracks? What do you think they are? And this is the first implementation, there's two more to come. Details aren't finalized for this implementation yet, and won't be until late Summer. Final approval isn't until late July.

 

[pstogios]

Those green spaces next to the tracks? What do you think they are?

They look like space for restaurant patios.

 

[steveintoronto]

They look like space for restaurant patios.

Indeed: "Pedestrian realm improvement"

[...]
In brief, King Street between Jarvis and Bathurst Streets would be modified as below:

• No through traffic would be permitted, only local access, and vehicles would be forced to turn off of King Street rather than continuing in a straight line across the core area.
• Transit stops would be shifted to farside locations so that pedestrian activity from riders boarding and alighting would be separated from right turning traffic movements.
• No parking would be permitted, but specific locations would be designated as loading zones for short-term use and for taxi stands.
• In some areas, pedestrian space would extend into the curb lane, and would be protected with measures such as planters to prevent vehicle access.

Each block would have four basic types of use in the curb lanes:

• Farside transit stop (red/orange in the diagram)
• Pedestrian realm improvement (green)
• Loading zone (blue)
• Right turn lane (gray)

The details will vary from block to block. For example, not all blocks have transit stops. Both the length of blocks and the nature of uses along the blocks will affect how much room is available/required for each type in each location. Transit stops and turn lanes are clearly “hard” requirements that must be met, and whatever remains would be divided for other types of treatment. Fine details of this plan are not included in the report, but will be worked out in detailed design over the summer with a target for implementation in fall 2017 after TIFF and its street occupancy is over. (Some aspects may not be implemented until Spring 2018 as they would be seasonal in nature.)
[...]

https://stevemunro.ca/2017/06/12/king-street-redesign-project-goes-to-ttccity-for-approval/

 

[Leo_Chan]

Are the patios privately owned in public space or publicly owned in public space?

 

[steveintoronto]

Are the patios privately owned in public space or publicly owned in public space?

It's a very valid question, but I surmise it would be leased, just as sidewalk patios are:

New plan proposes pushing patios back to make room for pedestrians, people with disabilities
Future sidewalk spaces could be smaller, narrower if city accepts proposed plan
By Michael Smee, CBC News Posted: Feb 08, 2017 8:32 PM ET Last Updated: Feb 09, 2017 5:36 AM ET

Just over a week after learning that their license fees could soon be rising dramatically, the city's patio owners got another surprise Wednesday: new restrictions on their sidewalk spaces are on the way.

The new measures, which would push back some patio frontages to make room for people with disabilities and pedestrians, came up at city hall's Disability Access and Inclusion Advisory Committee meeting Wednesday.[...]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sidewalk-patio-1.3973262

Needless to say, the City will be charging a good penny or two for leasing that space, and again, if alcohol is served, all the more reason to ensure pedestrians don't share a drink with a streetcar. It might be their last one.

 

[amnesiajune]

That's true, but the Dundas ridership might grow as the downtown density expands outwards. Plus, the reliability itself might be an issue that limits the ridership.

Development potential on Dundas is extremely limited since the corridor is designated as a "neighbourhood", which basically means no non-ground level housing allowed except directly on Dundas. Almost the entire area between Queen, Dufferin and the Oakville/Bala sub railways is designated as mixed-use, employment or regeneration areas.