King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[steveintoronto]

I have less concern about pedestrians. Looking at how they interact with the St Clair and Spadina ROW's we have learned that they do look both ways.

I have huge concerns about bikes. How many will blast through the red lights at Spadina with a disregard for the pedestrians legally crossing or a streetcar coming their way? Or a car turning right from King onto Spadina (getting hit and then blaming the driver)?

About 10% of the cyclists in Toronto completely ignore the rules of the road disregarding their own life (or others). Less than 1% of pedestrians are like that.

As an avid distance cyclist having done so in living in three nations and residing temporarily in others, I disagree. In Toronto, it's much higher than 10%. I make a guessing game of who's going to jump the red light or not, or turn without signalling, or pull in front of me when I'm stopped where I'm supposed to at a red when they know damn well I blew them away at the previous stop light. And my guess is right in the vast majority of cases. And women cyclists, btw, appear to be even worse than the guys. By and large, they just don't have a clue on what kind of 'street smarts' are needed to stay out of trouble. It's not just a case of following the law. It's following *protocol* so that other cyclists and motorists can read your probable moves. Just like dancing...but far more dangerous.

Just up at TorStar:

Star Exclusive: Poll shows growing support for bike licensing
A majority of Torontonians polled by Forum Research said better bike lanes would be a fair trade-off.

Why's this in this string? Because pedestrians are just as wingy. If anyone thinks that an accelerated streetcar corridor can exist side-by-side with pedestrians inches away without problems, then they should be licensed to use the sidewalks...

Oh, really?

You beat me to it! The difference is that a pedestrian has less inertia than a cyclist. They certainly don't have any more brains...

 

[Leo_Chan]

As an avid distance cyclist having done so in living in three nations and residing temporarily in others, I disagree. In Toronto, it's much higher than 10%. I make a guessing game of who's going to jump the red light or not, or turn without signalling, or pull in front of me when I'm stopped where I'm supposed to at a red when they know damn well I blew them away at the previous stop light. And my guess is right in the vast majority of cases. And women cyclists, btw, appear to be even worse than the guys. By and large, they just don't have a clue on what kind of 'street smarts' are needed to stay out of trouble. It's not just a case of following the law. It's following *protocol* so that other cyclists and motorists can read your probable moves. Just like dancing...but far more dangerous.

Just up at TorStar:

Why's this in this string? Because pedestrians are just as wingy. If anyone thinks that an accelerated streetcar corridor can exist side-by-side with pedestrians inches away without problems, they they should be licensed...

Biking should be like flying drones. You need a licence/permission to use it anywhere, but you can use it in specific areas. Same can be applied to biking. Licence required to bike on roads/sidewalks, but no licence required in parks, trails, rural areas.

 

[44 North]

Not yet but if you go on the 510 or 509 often enough you will hear the horn and bell used quite frequently as positions try to cross the streetcar tracks to wait fro the light to change. Plus Streetcars speed is slowed drastically because of them. Ther relly needs to be some sort of barrier between the tracks and the side walk along there and the Martin Goodman trail isn't enough as people will walk on it too.

Exactly. We have slow orders and limited speeds largely because of the issue. Hard to follow so many transit plans, but was under the impression the goal of 504 priority measures was to improve service.

 

[steveintoronto]

Exactly. We have slow orders and limited speeds largely because of the issue. Hard to follow so many transit plans, but was under the impression the goal of 504 priority measures was to improve service.

Exactly. I've just found time to start reading some of the reports from other jurisdictions, and as mentioned previously, almost all North Am LRT operators physically separate pedestrians from the tracks, some (and San Diego Trolley does this too) not only fence off the tracks, even for street running sections, but gate access to those tracks:

[...continues at length 23 pages...]

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/circulars/ec058/08_02_Irwin.pdf

It itemizes with engineering drawings and national transportation org reference for all the devices necessary to ensure safety of adjacent pedestrian areas, including gated access. But of course, Torontonians are far smarter than anyone else, and don't need such measures...

Full report attached

Further to 44's posted pic:
https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2016/July_11/Reports/9_The_Importance_of_Streetcars_in_the_TTC's_Integrated_Trans.pdf

 

[Steve X]

Not yet but if you go on the 510 or 509 often enough you will hear the horn and bell used quite frequently as positions try to cross the streetcar tracks to wait fro the light to change. Plus Streetcars speed is slowed drastically because of them. Ther relly needs to be some sort of barrier between the tracks and the side walk along there and the Martin Goodman trail isn't enough as people will walk on it too.

Streetcars used to have their own transit phase on QQ. The green is for cars to go straight and make left turns. It's totally different from Spadina and St Clair. Streetcars usually have to wait 10-20 sec but they'll get to go. With a red light now, they'll have to wait for left turning vehicles too. Plus there are more lights cause the tracks are to the side of traffic oppose to the middle. Even with barriers, they won't get the same speed back unless they priorities streetcars very well.

The 510 has an extra set of lights while the 509 has 2 (one for the traffic crossover west of Spadina). Also ridership has probably grown since 2012. The longer travel time is expected.

 

[Megaton327]

The 510 has an extra set of lights while the 509 has 2 (one for the traffic crossover west of Spadina).

Actually there are 3, not 1, new lights east of Spadina that affect both 509 and 510: Fire Station/Beer Store, Robertson Crescent East, and Harbourfront Centre. Those are all very minor intersections that used to only allow entrances/exits on the same side of the road, not requiring cutting across streetcar tracks, a big advantage of centre vs side ROW. Plus, as you mentioned, the crossover signal just west of Spadina affecting only the 509, however that one generally only affects westbound cars (for a few seconds) as eastbound cars usually arrive when it's green since they actually got the transit priority right on that one.

EDIT: actually, net 2 new signals east of Spadina--while there are 3 new signals, one was removed between the Bay portal and York St, there used to be a light there for the condos and the former parking lot at the current RBC site.

On a related note, wow, the history feature of Google Street View is neat.

 

[Steve X]

Actually there are 3, not 1, new lights east of Spadina that affect both 509 and 510: Fire Station/Beer Store, Robertson Crescent East, and Harbourfront Centre. Those are all very minor intersections that used to only allow entrances/exits on the same side of the road, not requiring cutting across streetcar tracks, a big advantage of centre vs side ROW. Plus, as you mentioned, the crossover signal just west of Spadina affecting only the 509, however that one generally only affects westbound cars (for a few seconds) as eastbound cars usually arrive when it's green since they actually got the transit priority right on that one.

EDIT: actually, net 2 new signals east of Spadina--while there are 3 new signals, one was removed between the Bay portal and York St, there used to be a light there for the condos and the former parking lot at the current RBC site.

On a related note, wow, the history feature of Google Street View is neat.

I missed the one in front of the fire station. It was previously leveled allowing firetrucks to crossover the tracks but didn't have lights. Yes, the one near the portal is removed.

 

[amnesiajune]

Not yet but if you go on the 510 or 509 often enough you will hear the horn and bell used quite frequently as positions try to cross the streetcar tracks to wait fro the light to change.

Yes, as a precaution. So what? Nobody's going to the hospital cause they heard a horn.

Plus Streetcars speed is slowed drastically because of them.

Again, so what? The average weekend afternoon speed on the 509 car went from 16.4 km/h in 2012 to 12.9 km/h, according to the TTC service summaries. A one-way trip along the entire route is 2 minutes and 30 second longer. Hardly anyone notices that little amount of time.

 

[steveintoronto]

EastYorkTTCFan said: ↑
Plus Streetcars speed is slowed drastically because of them.

Again, so what? The average weekend afternoon speed on the 509 car went from 16.4 km/h in 2012 to 12.9 km/h, according to the TTC service summaries. A one-way trip along the entire route is 2 minutes and 30 second longer. Hardly anyone notices that little amount of time.

Perhaps because the entire point of the King Street Corridor exercise is to speed up the present King car?

 

[amnesiajune]

Perhaps because the entire point of the King Street Corridor exercise is to speed up the present King car?

12.9 km/h would be a big improvement over the 504's current average PM peak speed of 8.5-9.5 km/h on the King Street section. That's especially true since the 12.9 km/h speed on the 509 includes waiting time at each end of the line, while the 8.5-9.5 km/h on King does not.

 

[steveintoronto]

The average weekend afternoon speed on the 509 car went from 16.4 km/h in 2012 to 12.9 km/h,

Factor that same ratio against "8.5-9.5 km/h on the King Street section". I don't know what math you use, but for everyone else, that makes it even slower.

 

[amnesiajune]

Factor that same ratio against "8.5-9.5 km/h on the King Street section".

Queen's Quay was running in a dedicated ROW on a low-traffic street. The 504 is running in mixed traffic on a jam-packed street. You definitely knew that.....

 

[steveintoronto]

Queen's Quay was running in a dedicated ROW on a low-traffic street. The 504 is running in mixed traffic on a jam-packed street. You definitely knew that.....

Are you incapable of applying forward factoring to the scenario you commented on prior? Here's what your answer was to:

Not yet but if you go on the 510 or 509 often enough you will hear the horn and bell used quite frequently as positions try to cross the streetcar tracks to wait fro the light to change. Plus Streetcars speed is slowed drastically because of them. Ther relly needs to be some sort of barrier between the tracks and the side walk along there and the Martin Goodman trail isn't enough as people will walk on it too.

You now make a specious statement on "Dedicated RoW", which is fine, as you are now on record as projecting that being the intent for the King Corridor, and in being 'dedicated' it indicates separation of pedestrians from crossing the tracks save at specified and ostensibly signalled, perhaps even gated, crossing points.

 

[nfitz]

You now make a specious statement on "Dedicated RoW", which is fine, as you are now on record as projecting that being the intent for the King Corridor, and in being 'dedicated' it indicates separation of pedestrians from crossing the tracks save at dedicated and ostensibly signalled, perhaps even gated, crossing points.

I'm not sure you are paying attention. It's been made very clear, that they are not going to be fencing or gating King Street!

 

[amnesiajune]

This whole discussion is pointless. People aren't idiots. They're capable of walking next to a streetcar without getting hurt.

When there's actually an accident on Queen's Quay or the King pilot then we can talk. Until then we're just blowing a hypothetical problem way out of proportion.