King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[amnesiajune]

I'm not sure why the spectre of clueless pedestrians throwing themselves in front of streetcars in the absence of a protective stream of cars has become such an issue on this thread. Lots of cities have streets that are closed to automobiles and have streetcar lines running beside sidewalks, and the death toll appears to be acceptable.

We have it too. Queen's Quay has been open for two years, and I don't think there's been a single pedestrian who wandered into the path of a streetcar and got hurt.

 

[steveintoronto]

You imply there's something wrong with people crossing the street.

Hardly. I imply, and the stats show it, that stepping in front of a moving streetcar doesn't end well for pedestrians.

And I"m not sure what your photo is supposed to show - this is at an intersection, and the pedestrians are clearly crossing on a green light.

Exactly. Crossing when the right of way is indicated.

That's a much bigger road than King.

So with pedestrians moving directly adjacent to streetcars moving at a good clip, the risk goes down?

Because this is starting to sound like The War On The Streetcar, folks.

Quite the opposite. It's to allow streetcars to move along King far less impeded than at present. That's what this whole exercise is about, isn't it? To utilize King Street to act as a much more efficient conduit to move more people than any other surface route in Toronto, and more than the Sheppard subway.

We have it too. Queen's Quay has been open for two years, and I don't think there's been a single pedestrian who wandered into the path of a streetcar and got hurt.

Queen's Quay has had some serious issues, and it's not even designated as a *TRANSIT MALL!*

Queens Quay crackdown this weekend reminds us of the rules
Redesigned street is popular but ‘you really have to keep your wits about you,’ admits mayor.

Fri., Aug. 12, 2016

Toronto police will hit the waterfront this weekend to launch a traffic blitz on crowded Queens Quay.

In a news release issued Friday, the force said officers will be on the street Saturday and Sunday afternoon, between noon and 4 p.m., and the blitz will target “motorists, cyclists and pedestrians not obeying the rules and committing unsafe acts.”

The release said the goal of the initiative was to enforce the rules but also educate the public “on how to make Queens Quay a safe place for everyone.”[...]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...own-this-weekend-reminds-us-of-the-rules.html

 

[amnesiajune]

Queen's Quay has had some serious issues

Has there been any serious incident of someone being accidentally hit by a streetcar? Or is the most serious issue just streetcar operators who have to pay attention and use their horn once in a while?

 

[steveintoronto]

For anyone who genuinely wants to quote research on LRT and Transit Mall safety. Melbourne *by far* has the largest tram network in the world, as well as Transit Malls and studies on it:

http://docs.trb.org/prp/11-1640.pdf

File is attached

 

[nfitz]

Hardly. I imply, and the stats show it, that stepping in front of a moving streetcar doesn't end well for pedestrians.

There are stats? Because all you've had so far are anecdotes. Of course it doesn't end well. Should we fence every street in the city?

Exactly. Crossing when the right of way is indicated.

That doesn't look like King though. King has less traffic, particularly outside of peak.

So with pedestrians moving directly adjacent to streetcars moving at a good clip, the risk goes down?

The bigger danger are the cars. It's pretty hard not to see a streetcar. On King, there'll be at most one lane to cross, before getting to a refuge.

Quite the opposite. It's to allow streetcars to move along King far less impeded than at present.

Why do you think pedestrians are impeding streetcars on King? They only do that when there are pedestrian-controlled crossings. Do you suggest those get removed?

Queen's Quay has had some serious issues, and it's not even designated as a *TRANSIT MALL!*

It's got more pedestrians wandering around aimlessly than King.

Nothing is designated as a "Transit Mall". Not sure where you are pulling that one form. This is nothing like Queens Quay. Pedestrians aren't walking along the edge of the tracks, there's a roadway between the sidewalk, and the tracks - or a bump out island like Roncesvalles. How is this less safe than the current situation?

To misquote a great president, they are no building that ****en fence.

 

[steveintoronto]

Nothing is designated as a "Transit Mall". Not sure where you are pulling that one form.

I take issue with every point you try to make, I'm not going to argue endlessly with you, but will discuss it with posters who make a referenced case, but this sums up your stance:
"Nothing is designated as a "Transit Mall"

 

[nfitz]

I take issue with every point you try to make, I'm not going to argue endlessly with you, but will discuss it with posters who make a referenced case

In other words, you know I'm right, but will never admit it.

How often do you cross King Street. When? Where? Your comments are so naive, I have to think that you aren't there on a daily basis.

but this sums up your stance: "Nothing is designated as a "Transit Mall"

Not quite sure your point here. There are 5 steps between where we are now, and a full transit mall. What is being proposed is somewhere between the first and second step. Nothing is designated as a transit mall. The words aren't used one in the current motion to enact this. I'd reference this, but as the word transit mall doesn't exist in the motion or supporting documents, there's nothing to reference!

 

[steveintoronto]

What is being proposed is somewhere between the first and second step.

Reference please.

 

[nfitz]

Reference please.

Really?

It's a bit more than just paint on the road. But it's not alternating curb lanes. See http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2017.EX26.1 particularly the first and third attachments.

 

[Avenue]

I'm not sure why the spectre of clueless pedestrians throwing themselves in front of streetcars in the absence of a protective stream of cars has become such an issue on this thread. Lots of cities have streets that are closed to automobiles and have streetcar lines running beside sidewalks, and the death toll appears to be acceptable.

Many of these are extremely slow. We need some halfway decent speed on King, so those are not necessarily good examples for comparison.

 

[muller877]

Many of these are extremely slow. We need some halfway decent speed on King, so those are not necessarily good examples for comparison.

I have less concern about pedestrians. Looking at how they interact with the St Clair and Spadina ROW's we have learned that they do look both ways.

I have huge concerns about bikes. How many will blast through the red lights at Spadina with a disregard for the pedestrians legally crossing or a streetcar coming their way? Or a car turning right from King onto Spadina (getting hit and then blaming the driver)?

About 10% of the cyclists in Toronto completely ignore the rules of the road disregarding their own life (or others). Less than 1% of pedestrians are like that.

 

[Avenue]

Or a car turning right from King onto Spadina (getting hit and then blaming the driver)?

About 10% of the cyclists in Toronto completely ignore the rules of the road disregarding their own life (or others). Less than 1% of pedestrians are like that.

How did you come up with the idea that a bike crossing Spadina on King deserves to get hit by a right-turning car? Like, what's even the context here?

You probably know this already but your stats are 100% baseless.

 

[muller877]

How did you come up with the idea that a bike crossing Spadina on King deserves to get hit by a right-turning car? Like, what's even the context here?

You probably know this already but your stats are 100% baseless.

Please read my first paragraph and not quote it out of context. When the light is red for the cyclist and green for the auto to turn right. When the car has the ROW and the cyclist is illegally crossing a street.

So in context...
There will be no autos on King going straight through at Spadina. Its great for streetcars.

But we know what happens with stop signs, crosswalks and even red lights with many cyclists. They ignore them. So going south or north on Spadina at a red light the only impediment for them to go through a stoplight is (1) pedestrians, (2) a streetcar or (3) a car turning right. I am making an educated guess that many will ignore all the risks to themselves or to others and now will ignore the red light.

Bikes can swerve around pedestrians (they are used to doing that). There will be some that will play chicken with a streetcar (and some will lose). And many will just ignore the car turning right who has the ROW. The car is trying to look out for all the pedestrians and does not have eyes on the back of their heads to also look for crazy cyclists ignoring a red light. I can just see the carnage. And then the Torontoist blaming the car.

So I am worried about both pedestrians and cyclists with the proposal. But more worried about cyclists since pedestrians are use to crossing busy ROW's like Spadina. When it becomes a permanent fixture I think they would need to look at creating a different texture (e.g. the old school rough bricks) to give a subtle warning to pedestrians and cyclists as another safety measure...but no railing or anything is needed.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Has there been any serious incident of someone being accidentally hit by a streetcar? Or is the most serious issue just streetcar operators who have to pay attention and use their horn once in a while?

Not yet but if you go on the 510 or 509 often enough you will hear the horn and bell used quite frequently as positions try to cross the streetcar tracks to wait fro the light to change. Plus Streetcars speed is slowed drastically because of them. Ther relly needs to be some sort of barrier between the tracks and the side walk along there and the Martin Goodman trail isn't enough as people will walk on it too.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I have less concern about pedestrians. Looking at how they interact with the St Clair and Spadina ROW's we have learned that they do look both ways...

Oh, really?