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King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

steveintoronto said:
Just watching this, @tayser might have a comment to make. For the first few minutes I've watched, two observations: Melbourne is a cross (at least in this northern sector of the city) of San Diego and Toronto to me.

Also: As reputed, Victoria drivers are a lot more sedate than Toronto drivers, and thank God for that. Toronto, and much of Ontario has become the home of manic driving. I'm told by Aussies that speeding is not just a legal offence in Oz, for many, it's a social one too. There will of course be exceptions.

Enjoy the vid! Palm trees! OMG, I'm getting a hit of Vit D just watching this.
4K- Melbourne Tram Driver View - 2018 Update Route 96 from St Kilda Beach
Click to expand...

Expat here. It's not really a social offence - everyone back in aus speeds a bit. "Hooning" (excessive speeding) is kind of a bogan/redneck thing that's best done in a V8 Holden, but honestly most Aussies are just afraid of the speeding fines, and rightly so. They are massive (usually about 3-4x the price compared to the fines in Ontario). There can also be heaps of speed cams depending on the state. In my experience, tram route 96 feels the most Californian, especially as it travels past our beachside amusement park. I don't feel very Toronto streetcar when I'm on a tram almost anywhere in Melbourne though. There just never seems to be as much continuous interaction with cars when on the tram as compared to the streetcar. King St Pilot is a bit of an exception there though.
 
JasonParis said:
I think that might be the answer.
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I'm afraid I disagree. It won't address the number one issue: Bunching.

Happened again today at Roncy and Howard Park. Got off the 506 westbound to get my delicious dose of Bigos at
Village Meat Products & Deli - 415 Roncesvalles Ave
best price I'm aware of for the stuff, albeit they make it a tad spicy, and had to wait for 504 for close to twenty minutes, and lo and behold, along come three of them, two together, with one straggling half a block behind.

So add in more units, and the bunches get bigger. The problem is lack of electronic (telemetry) dispatching and control on top of the incredibly dysfunctional way Toronto deals with the third busiest transit route in the city:
1543964232140.png

Staff stand by this position, despite previous arguments to the contrary and believe that, with any service as frequent as every two minutes, there is no way to effectively manage and ensure reliability on a route operating in mixed traffic, an environment over which the TTC has no control. Good streetcar service in mixed traffic is no more achievable than would be frequent, reliable service on the Yonge subway line if that service were made to operate in mixed traffic on Yonge Street, subject to delivery trucks and illegally-parking vehicles on the subway tracks. As staff have said previously, there is no other city in the world which attempts to operate service as frequent as the 504 KING route in mixed traffic. Therefore, it is critical to understand that, as long as this route continues to operate in mixed traffic, there is little the TTC can do to bring about dramatic improvements in the reliability or regularity of this service. The best that will be achieved is marginal improvements.
[...]
Click to expand...
TORONTO TRANSIT COMMISSION REPORT NO. MEETING DATE: MARCH 21, 2007 SUBJECT: IMPROVEMENTS TO THE 504 KING STREETCAR SERVICE
https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2007/te/bgrd/backgroundfile-3633.pdf

Over ten years ago. What a great city we are eh? We'll show the world! (How not to do it)
 
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steveintoronto said:
I'm afraid I disagree. It won't address the number one issue: Bunching.

Happened again today at Roncy and Howard Park. Got off the 506 westbound to get my delicious dose of Bigos at
Village Meat Products & Deli - 415 Roncesvalles Ave
best price I'm aware of for the stuff, albeit they make it a tad spicy, and had to wait for 504 for close to twenty minutes, and lo and behold, along come three of them, two together, with one straggling half a block behind.

So add in more units, and the bunches get bigger. The problpem is lack of electronic (telemetry) dispatching and control on top of the incredibly dysfunctional way Toronto deals with the third busiest transit route in the city:

TORONTO TRANSIT COMMISSION REPORT NO. MEETING DATE: MARCH 21, 2007 SUBJECT: IMPROVEMENTS TO THE 504 KING STREETCAR SERVICE
https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2007/te/bgrd/backgroundfile-3633.pdf

Over ten years ago. What a great city we are eh? We'll show the world! (How not to do it)
Click to expand...

Really am not surprised. This, as I said above, has been ongoing since October with the 504A. Waiting 20 minutes, is really not common with the 504A. Aside from the 504A, not surprised that you found a report from 2007 about 504.
 
thettctransitfanatic said:
Really am not surprised. This, as I said above, has been ongoing since October with the 504A. Waiting 20 minutes, is really not common with the 504A. Aside from the 504A, not surprised that you found a report from 2007 about 504.
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Should be some earlier ones than that. The King Pilot comes out of motion made by Councillor Miller before he ran for mayor. 2002 or earlier ...
 
thettctransitfanatic said:
So, Miller came up with the King Pilot idea ? Now I know why Ford hates the pilot project.
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I don't give Doug Ford anywhere close to enough credit to be aware of which TTC commissioner first pushed it.

Oh, here's the original "Dedicated Streetcar Lanes On The 504 King Route " - https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Co...01/Apr_11_2001/Other/Dedicated_Streetcar_.pdf

It notes that "At its meeting on February 16, 2001, the Commission considered the TTC's 2001 Operating Budget and approved Commissioner Miller's motion which included, …that staff be requested to report to the Commission regarding… significant transit priority measures for the surface system, in particular streetcars".

One one hand it's impressive that staff managed to produce a report in only 2 months (which makes me think there were discussions before February 2001). On the other hand, that took 16 years to get to the pilot stage.

Digging deeper, there's a January 2001 motion from Moscoe on exclusive lanes as well - though not clear which street is referred to.
 
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nfitz said:
I don't give Doug Ford anywhere close to enough credit to be aware of which TTC commissioner first pushed it.

Oh, here's the original "Dedicated Streetcar Lanes On The 504 King Route " - https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Co...01/Apr_11_2001/Other/Dedicated_Streetcar_.pdf

It notes that "At its meeting on February 16, 2001, the Commission considered the TTC's 2001 Operating Budget and approved Commissioner Miller's motion which included, …that staff be requested to report to the Commission regarding… significant transit priority measures for the surface system, in particular streetcars".

One one hand it's impressive that staff managed to produce a report in only 2 months (which makes me think there were discussions before February 2001). On the other hand, that took 16 years to get to the pilot stage.

Digging deeper, there's a January 2001 motion from Moscoe on exclusive lanes as well - though not clear which street is referred to.
Click to expand...


Geez, took so long for the City to implement the pilot.
 
This coming to Council later this week:

Recommendations
The City Manager recommends that:

1. City Council authorize the continuation of the King Street Transit Pilot between Bathurst Street and Jarvis Street to July 31, 2019, inclusive, in order to provide sufficient time for Council to consider the findings of the evaluation in the first quarter of 2019 and reach a decision on whether or not to make the pilot permanent prior to the start of Council's summer recess period.
See: http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2019.CC1.5
 
DSC said:
City Council authorize the continuation of the King Street Transit Pilot between Bathurst Street and Jarvis Street to July 31, 2019, inclusive,...
Click to expand...

Reading the attached PDFs I don't see any hint that Transportation Services (it's technically their project) is fighting against making it permanent.

That's a remarkable change from ~2004 when Miller had to order the department to count people and not vehicles (where a loaded streetcar or a single occupant in a BMW had the same score).
 
DSC said:
This coming to Council later this week:

Recommendations
The City Manager recommends that:

1. City Council authorize the continuation of the King Street Transit Pilot between Bathurst Street and Jarvis Street to July 31, 2019, inclusive, in order to provide sufficient time for Council to consider the findings of the evaluation in the first quarter of 2019 and reach a decision on whether or not to make the pilot permanent prior to the start of Council's summer recess period.
See: http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2019.CC1.5
Click to expand...


Thank god.
 
thettctransitfanatic said:
Yes, removing stops that are close together is definitely in the TTC's agenda, like you mentioned above. However, I think the Jack Layton Way stop is by a hospital, and because of which, if the TTC removes the stop, then they have to here to people in the hospital complaining that they have to walk an extra few hundred meters.
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Isn't the obvious solution, in a situation like this, to eliminate the stop farthest from the hospital and keep the one closest to the hospital.....the circumstance described here does not scream out "ah well, I guess we are forced to keep both stops"
 
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