micheal_can
Senior Member
What is needed on King is 4 sets of traffic signals. One for Transit, one for cars, one for cyclists, and one for pedestrians.
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What is needed on King is 4 sets of traffic signals. One for Transit, one for cars, one for cyclists, and one for pedestrians.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Indeed, and the term "proportionality" can be applied many ways, usually in sentencing rather than the finding of guilt or not. To take your point further, are motorcyclists able to claim "proportionality" in application of the law since their machines weigh a fraction of that of a car? Hardly. Or a Fiat 500 compared to a Humvee? The HTA defines "vehicle" as applying to bicycles in all respects but a few instances (parking and speeding being two). The HTA is very clear in stating "vehicles" in most cases, and that means bicycles in almost all.
Transit can go on the same head as regular lights, (the indication necessary is very simple and already in the HTA) and cyclists and pedestrians should share the same signals, in sequence if not actual indicators (and that's a separate issue for delineated cycle lanes which the City states are not planned...something that makes sense since there just isn't the street width, not to mention the touted layout isn't compatible or safe for cyclists...in fact it's recklessly dangerous in some regards, the City had best admit that before they get sued)
Other than perhaps separate lights for turning lanes (it appears the striped exclusionary roadway markings meet the term "lane" as defined by the HTA in many cases) it's by far best for the primary head to indicate all major functions, (amber sequence is required by HTA definitions for the primary lights) but the lane lights can be simple red and green, and tied to the pedestrian sequence, as they are now on the primary heads showing green arrows or not.
The challenge is to reduce ambiguity, as many contested cases have failed on even the slightest indication of it. This is civil law, not criminal. And a solid red light is pretty damn hard to argue against in court. Especially if a Red Light Camera is used for evidence, the terms of which I posted yesterday, and to which a whole section is added to the HTA:
http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bi...illID=1821&ParlSessionID=36:2&isCurrent=false
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Sure, I wouldn't have any beef about prosecuting that. Call me when one is done with cars though, we might have some time left for the cyclists.
AoD
MetroMan
Senior Member
Just went on a 40 minute walk along King. Conclusion: nobody obeys the fucking rules and cops don’t give a shit.
There was a police cruiser parked mid block between Spadina and Peter. A parade of cars went through Spadina, I walked past the cruiser and the two cops were inside just chatting, oblivious to everything outside. Then that same parade of cars went through the Peter intersection as well. I looked back. Cops still inside, cruiser still turned off.
On my way back, the same cops were still in the cruiser and there was a steady stream of cars driving through the Peter intersection unopposed. Same when I got to Spadina, in addition to a couple of cars making illegal left turns, pedestrians ignoring the advance right turn signal and bikes sailing through red lights.
The police on King Street Pilot duty are just killing time, maybe spending a part of their shift meeting a likely lowball quota. This is the highest paid police force in the World.
Oh, and my dog almost got hit by cyclist riding on the sidewalk.
This city needs a serious readjustment.
There was a police cruiser parked mid block between Spadina and Peter. A parade of cars went through Spadina, I walked past the cruiser and the two cops were inside just chatting, oblivious to everything outside. Then that same parade of cars went through the Peter intersection as well. I looked back. Cops still inside, cruiser still turned off.
On my way back, the same cops were still in the cruiser and there was a steady stream of cars driving through the Peter intersection unopposed. Same when I got to Spadina, in addition to a couple of cars making illegal left turns, pedestrians ignoring the advance right turn signal and bikes sailing through red lights.
The police on King Street Pilot duty are just killing time, maybe spending a part of their shift meeting a likely lowball quota. This is the highest paid police force in the World.
Oh, and my dog almost got hit by cyclist riding on the sidewalk.
This city needs a serious readjustment.
nfitz
Superstar
I hadn't looked closely at the start before (Jarvis), but this one was east of Sherbourne - closer to Princess. So over 3 blocks. I'm surprised I'd not noticed it before - but I wouldn't swear it's not been there before recently.
So is that 4 demerit points then? If you go all the way through all 8 intersections, that's 16 demerit points and bye-bye licence.
That would be a great undercover gig, tailing cars back and forth, seeing if you can get them for the whole thing. Must be some. I've been west of Market a couple of times so far, and I've easily seen cars follow the streetcar through 3 intersections.
Got a couple of photos of it happening today. We need a name and same website somewhere.
Though watching, most seemed to be doing so, to go a block or two past where they sailed through - which might explain why we see this happening, but it also seems empty at the same time. Those that run the whole thing mostly go elsewhere (personally, I've never run the whole thing in my life - always end up on another street, simply because it was always faster).
Ironically this is the first time that King might be a better deal for cars ... other than those streetcars ... I guess we need more street furniture make it not possible to overake them!
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UD2
Active Member
that logic doesn't make sense. law is law, doesn't matter what you're piloting or how much potential harm you could cause. if you want to talk about tonnage then the same logic should be given to the ability to stop.
In this case, the vehicle with the least ability to stop gets the right of way (ie, truck, busses, cars, motorcycles, bicycles, people in that order). Every time laws of physics gets mentioned then the anti-car crowd jumps behind the traffic laws that they didn't want to obey in the first place.
you gotta pick one. You can either have traffic laws that everybody obeys, or laws of physics that needs no enforcement. no picking and choosing.
and don't crown me as a car advocate either. I'm a cyclist, pedestrian, transit user, and driver in the same time depending on situation and I am 100% behind this pilot project.. I only advocate for fairness to everybody.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
If laws end up creating - by design or unintended consequences asymmetrical outcomes, it isn't fariness. Besides, let me flip it around - shouldn't those operating vehicles with the least ability to stop not get the right of way, but have to be especially stringent with respect to their adherence to the law, given the outcomes? If you know your vehicle isn't one to be able to stop in time, you shouldn't be trying to rush the red light or make dangerous lane changes in the first place.
It's like expecting the same fines for someone earning minimum wage and someone earning 8 figures to work the same way. That isn't fairness.
AoD
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pstogios
Senior Member
Did you talk to the police officers to tell them of the many infractions you witnessed?
Did you file a complaint with the TPS or with your local city councillor’s office?
As much as it feels good to vent here and I feel the same anger you do, it accomplishes nothing to fix these glaring problems.
ADRM
Senior Member
From TO Transport's Twitter:
Our crews have started placing planters along King to delineate new public spaces! Installation will continue along the #KingStreetPilot stretch over the next few months. Learn more @ http://bit.ly/2zYlhVc
I know they wanted to get the pilot up and running as quickly as possible, but I do find the sequencing/rollout pretty strange (i.e. they're still doing stuff I would've thought they'd plan to do from the start).
Our crews have started placing planters along King to delineate new public spaces! Installation will continue along the #KingStreetPilot stretch over the next few months. Learn more @ http://bit.ly/2zYlhVc
I know they wanted to get the pilot up and running as quickly as possible, but I do find the sequencing/rollout pretty strange (i.e. they're still doing stuff I would've thought they'd plan to do from the start).
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
From TO Transport's Twitter:
Our crews have started placing planters along King to delineate new public spaces! Installation will continue along the #KingStreetPilot stretch over the next few months. Learn more @ http://bit.ly/2zYlhVc
I know they wanted to get the pilot up and running as quickly as possible, but I do find the sequencing/rollout pretty strange (i.e. they're still doing stuff I would've thought they'd plan to do from the start).
Maybe they didn't want to put in the effort for something quasi-permanent until they get an inkling what's going to happen first.
AoD
MetroMan
Senior Member
From TO Transport's Twitter:
Our crews have started placing planters along King to delineate new public spaces! Installation will continue along the #KingStreetPilot stretch over the next few months. Learn more @ http://bit.ly/2zYlhVc
I know they wanted to get the pilot up and running as quickly as possible, but I do find the sequencing/rollout pretty strange (i.e. they're still doing stuff I would've thought they'd plan to do from the start).
I remember this in the discussions. They want to try different things so that they can get as much data as possible. Even things like the planters that they know they want to implement, it was worth seeing how cars would behave without them there.
The whole setup should be more or less finalized and in place for the Spring, after which they’ll still have a good 6 months of uninterrupted observation of the pilot in its final form.
Boulevardier
New Member
I ride along Adelaide every morning around 9.30am to St. Andrew, and take the King car from Yonge to Niagara around 6.30pm. I have not seen more traffic on Adelaide -- It has always been busy, before the pilot, starting at Duncan. My evening commute has been cut by ten minutes. The streetcar sails through the intersection at Spadina, formerly a purgatory. I even missed my stop once because we got there so quickly.
This morning I cycled along King to see what it was like. In my opinion, the pavement is very well marked, so motorists don't have an excuse. There was almost no car traffic. I saw two police cars giving tickets between Spadina and University. It's much better for cyclists, though not ideal on the stretch by Pecaut Square.
I've also noticed that most pedestrians have adapted to the advance right turn and are now waiting for their signal.
So for those who have been in despair over compliance and enforcement, my anecdotal data shows the opposite, at least at the times I am travelling.
This morning I cycled along King to see what it was like. In my opinion, the pavement is very well marked, so motorists don't have an excuse. There was almost no car traffic. I saw two police cars giving tickets between Spadina and University. It's much better for cyclists, though not ideal on the stretch by Pecaut Square.
I've also noticed that most pedestrians have adapted to the advance right turn and are now waiting for their signal.
So for those who have been in despair over compliance and enforcement, my anecdotal data shows the opposite, at least at the times I am travelling.
aquateam
Active Member
From TO Transport's Twitter:
Our crews have started placing planters along King to delineate new public spaces! Installation will continue along the #KingStreetPilot stretch over the next few months. Learn more @ http://bit.ly/2zYlhVc
I know they wanted to get the pilot up and running as quickly as possible, but I do find the sequencing/rollout pretty strange (i.e. they're still doing stuff I would've thought they'd plan to do from the start).
Wow, the pedestrians on the south end of King must be happy with the reduced overcrowding: they finally have some space to breathe with the reclaimed road.
MetroMan
Senior Member
Is this sarcasm? That sidewalk from John to Simcoe is more than wide enough for its pedestrian traffic with David Pecaut Square providing even more overflow. That this sidewalk was widened when the one across the street is ironically one of the most constrained and overcapacity in the city makes absolutely no sense.
I spoke with Joe Cressy's assistant about this and he said that they made an "educated guess". It seems that they've never walked the north sidewalk during either rush hour, lunch or when the theatres are operating. A little ray of hope: they've rezoned Mirvish Way for some bus parking and will be watching to determine if it has sufficient bus parking capacity to then prohibit bus parking on King and widen those sidewalks instead.
TOareaFan
Superstar
I am often driving it at the same time....and I agree.....pleasantly surprised by how little impact it has had on Adelaide traffic (it’s not zero impact....but not far off).....I actually found myself wondering where the people who used to drive on King actually went.