John Tory Speech - His plans for a strong Toronto

[ganjavih]

Although I disagree with most of Abeja's views, I don't consider Harper an extremist, nor do I consider anyone who supports the Federal Conservatives or who disagrees with the concept of gay marriage to automatically be a right wing extremist.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

ganja:

I consider what Harper carefully dishes out through his governmental mouthpieces to be relatively mild - that tell us nothing about his ultimate agenda and personal beliefs, which I suspect is fairly "extremist" in nature.

AoD

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

I definitely think that there are some extremist points of view within the Conservative Party and its core and traditional western supporters. However, I believe this group is becoming marginalized within the party, as Harper realises that he needs to be everyone's PM, not just some western rednecks. This is why we're beginning to see the rise of the Alberta Independence Movement, and the beginning of talks about raising a new Reform Party, independent of the new CPC.

The NDP used to be very strongly associated with unions and the labour movement, and had nothing to do with environmental issues, same-sex issues or abortion rights, etc. I imagine there were an equal a number of extremists in the NDP that revolted against the move from the traditionalist NDP labour base towards the new NDP.

These extremists on both sides will do what they always do, complain until they see they're not getting their way, then take their marbles home, and seek out like-minded folks to hang out with, while declaring the imminent collapse of their original party, only to see it grow in popularity and base. This is what will happen to the CPC, and is what happened to the NDP. I really like and respect Layton for example, as he's embracing a lot of ideas that are important to many people, while getting rid of the traditional labour extremists who might otherwise dominant policy and decisions.

 

[RJR123]

Re same-sex marriage and being a right-wing extremist, I believe there is a correlation. Denying a group of people a right that is enjoyed by the majority of the population simply because of a prejiduce towards them (and that is exactly what it is, and nothing else) is extremism. There are historical parallels involving rights being witheld to groups of people (ex. the disenfranchisement of women). If one were to support the witholding of these rights now, one would be viewed as an extremist. I fail to see the difference with same-sex marriage and its opponents- they are extremists.

 

[Mike in TO]

Re: Re: John Tory Speech - His plans for a strong Toronto

If there's anything "extreme", it's the judgment-mongering. And I'm no Harperite, or even John Tory-ite, or Jane Pitfield-ite, etc. etc...

Worth repeating....

 

[andreapalladio]

BTW, SSM not a human right; and calling it such belittles the true human rights those around the world live without,

This is how you voiced your support for same sex marriage, Abeja. It seems you have difficulty recalling your own bigotry.

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

Re: Re: John Tory Speech - His plans for a strong Toronto

For myself, if you want to marry your sister, that's your business not mine. I think the government should get out of the marriage certifying business all together. IMO, the goverment should not be taking spousal or common-law partnerships into account in any policies. For example, if two room-mates live in the same house, they currently pay tax as individuals, but presumably, if they start shagging, they're now a couple, and are taxed as partners. IMO, let's get the government out of the marriage business, tax everyone the same progressive rates regardless of their living arrangements - this is the only reason the gov't cares about who's married, so they can set their tax rates.

As for Harper, I don't think he'll be touching the same sex item again. I think a lot of folks on both sides of the issue did not agree on how MPs were forced to vote either yes or no, and that's the premise that Harper wanted to re-address the issue, ie. make it a free vote. That said, we all know that he promised to re-address it in order to keep the extemists in his party happy. As I've said above, these extremists are no longer as important to Harper, so he can now throw them away in place of a more mainstream governance - thus I do not expect Harper to touch same-sex again.

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

This is how you voiced your support for same sex marriage, Abeja. It seems you have difficulty recalling your own bigotry.

Well researched Andrea, however, if you'll follow that topic, you'll see my final conclusion above, well stated, that we should consider all such cases as contraventions of human rights. My original post, which you quote today, was out of my feeling of the time that by applying the HR label to SSM, we were belittling the rights of food, shelter, freedom of persecution and genocide and other truly nasty things that happen to people. However, I was convinced by the group and by the replies, that SSM is indeed a human right, and my concluding comment on that topic supports that. Please don't confuse my initial ardent support of traditional human rights over the ideas of new ideas on rights as bigotry, as I simply hadn't considered SSM as a human right before then.

There's little point in being part of these discussions if we're not open minded to other people's points of view, and if we're not willing to consider a complete change of personal viewpoint based on new information or opinion. One might argue then that without a firm line in the sand, that we can't rely on anyone's foundations, but I'd say it's better to be open minded on all things. Andrea, given sufficient time, you could probably convince me to support many of your own views, provided they don't hurt or unfairly infringe upon others.

 

[andreapalladio]

If you believe in open mindedness, then why do you so ardently support Harper and his closed minded, extremist polices? He and his party, and by supporting them, you, stand for homophobia, handgun proliferation, degradation of the environment, desctruction of an independent judiciary, and fiscal irresponsiblity.

 

[RJR123]

As well as the pursuit of red herrings, such as stoned drivers, for which an entire press conference was held.

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

If you believe in open mindedness, then why do you so ardently support Harper and his closed minded, extremist polices?

I don't. I voted for Harper, like most of the millions of Canadians in 2006, I suspect, to get rid of the corrupt, stealing and ill-led Liberals.

I voted for McGuinty instead of Eves because I liked his promises. And not only his promises of tax and spend controls, but also his commitment to stop the coal fired plants, and to protect the Oak Ridges Moraine. It's his failure to live up to such promises that annoy me. I'm a father, and want a safe, economically sound and healthy environment for my children and their children. However, just this morning, I hear on the news that McGuinty is now breaking his re-promise on the coal plants of closing them by 2009 (originally promised 2007), and now says he might close some of them by 2011, and perhaps all by 2014. I would gladly pay a temporary energy tax to get those coal plants shut down or converted to NG.

 

[building babel]

If Harper was as concerned about the violation of rights in Canada as he claims to be about the violation of rights in China we'd be a better country. But grandstanding about the failings of others is easier than confronting the bigotry of his core values.

 

[billonlogan]

bb:
To compare the violation of human rights in China, where political dissent and faith communities are subject to imprisonment and execution, with Harpers core values is a bit of a stretch.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

billonlogan:

Human rights isn't something that one can pick and choose. If he is really serious about asserting human rights elsewhere, there is quite a list of other nations to go through.

AoD

 

[andreapalladio]

voted for Harper, like most of the millions of Canadians in 2006, I suspect, to get rid of the corrupt, stealing and ill-led Liberals.

I see. So you turned a blind eye to Hapers bigotry, or were not sufficiently offended by it to withold your support from him, then or now.