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Islam versus Europe

Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

Abeja de Almirante said:
Quote: The Muslim kids about...chemistry and bio.

Hmmm...and pilot lessons?

Chemistry, bio, and flying lessons…are you insinuating that Muslims focus on these courses solely to commit a terrorist sortie? This joke was in poor humor, and smacks of racism.




EDIT: cannot seem to quote properly
 
Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

I think what Europeans find unsettling about Islam is that that religion has fundamentally different values when it comes to liberalism and a general "live or let live" attitude. See Afghani man sentenced to death for converting to Christianity....

And no doubt a tremendous number of Muslims living in Europe find the politicians, professors and journalists calling for their mass expulsion more than a little unsettling.

Comparing cosmopolitan Muslims living in European cities with tribal chieftans in Afghanistan is more than a little unfair.
 
Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

Chemistry, bio, and flying lessons…are you insinuating that Muslims focus on these courses solely to commit a terrorist sortie? This joke was in poor humor, and smacks of racism.
In poor humour perhaps, but racism, no. Being Muslim is not a race. There are large and historic Muslim populations in sub-saharan Africa, Malaysia and Indonesia, Philippines, North Africa, Middle East and India, consisting of peoples from many different races; while the same countries have many different religions. My comments were purely anti-Muslim, as they should be, since this religion has been the call to arms in train attacks in Europe, attacks on WTC and DC in USA and likely hundreds of unreported attacks elsewhere. We're at war here with Muslim fundamentalism, we don't want to believe it, and we can't imagine the middle eastern fellow in our class, or driving our cab, or living next door can have a heart of evil, and this is counted on as part of the cause.

If someone had considered that the 9/11 crew were pursuing flight education in the USA to commit such acts, then perhaps we could have stopped them. Of course, singling these fellows out would likely have resulted in calls of racism then as well. It would not surprise me if CSIS does not pay special attention to when Muslim students study bio-chem, particularly if they're foreign born.

Is it fair to suspect all Muslims for the acts of few? Of course not, it's not in tune with our Canadian way of thinking at all. However, fairness is not the deciding factor in public safety.
 
Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

Interesting you didn't bother to separate Muslims from Muslim fundamentalism, however. An unfortunate omission, perhaps?

The issue is always fundamentalism and extremism, not whether one is Muslim, Jewish or otherwise.

AoD
 
Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

However, fairness is not the deciding factor in public safety.

Fairness is one issue, the question of effectiveness is another. Considering the number of Muslims studying sciences in Canada, CSIS would have to be pretty stupid, or have way too much time and money to investigate all of them. I certainly don't want my tax dollars used to investigate all Russians for mob involvement or all blacks for gun violence.

I suspect those predicting a future of ethnic cleansing race wars are doing so more out of their own xenophobic views rather than a genuine concern for safety and security. After all, the KKK is predicting huge black vs. white race wars in an effort to get people to start dealing with the black folk now.
 
Interesting you didn't bother to separate Muslims from Muslim fundamentalism
Neither does the average European. When every day, clean-cut, European born and educated Muslims attack passenger trains in Spain and the UK, there is no way to diffentiate the fundamentalists from the moderates. If the bad guys all wore Bin Laden towels and beards and held up boogeyman signs, then Europeans might rest easier and be more accomidating of every day Muslims, though I still doubt it. Europeans in Europe do not accept Muslims, they never have.
 
I am not talking about how it is perceived in Europe, but you.

AoD
 
The topic is Islam versus Europe, so I'm speaking on my perception and experience of the general pan-European view on Muslims.

As for myself, as I've already stated, there is a reason I left Europe for Canada, and that is I predict a nasty clash between Islam and Europe. I want no part of either cultures' struggles for power and influence. I'm quite happy living here in Canada, with our multicultural population, with no one culture being dominant.
 
Interesting you didn't bother to separate Muslims from Muslim fundamentalism, however. An unfortunate omission, perhaps?

Thank you thank you thank you
 
Europeans have never been welcoming of Muslims. There's a long history there, with much of today's southern Europe, from Spain to the Balkans being invaded and occupied by Muslim hordes. Just ask the Armenian-Christians if life under Ottoman-Turkish rule was pleasant. Or the Spanish who lived under the Umayyad Caliphate.

You might want to say "some Europeans," or "certain Europeans," or even those "Europeans who hold ethnocentric views that resemble racism." I don't think you can characterize all Europeans as so closed-minded.

If one is going to want to engage in these unrealistic historical dialogues with people from the past, one could consider widening the inquiry. What would the Muslims of Spain (the offspring of the "hordes" as you so delicately call them), think about their treatment under Christian authorities of that time? What would they think about the Iquisition, or forced conversions, or forced expulsions, or being threatened with death? I'd imagine it would not be thrilling, or welcoming, or remotely comfortable.

It would seem that there is plenty of blame to hand out in history for all the past wrongs that one could conceivably catalogue, so if you want to look to history for your contemporary attitudes, then stop being so selective. There have been plenty of European governments that have failed to be friendly or welcoming to their own traditional populations for a host or supposed reasons. Then there is the history of European adventures abroad, with its own litany of subjugation and bloodshed.

If one were to generate assumptions about Europeans from recent history, one could generate a pretty poor attitude towards Europeans. But we don't live in the past, do we?


Neither does the average European. When every day, clean-cut, European born and educated Muslims attack passenger trains in Spain and the UK, there is no way to diffentiate the fundamentalists from the moderates. If the bad guys all wore Bin Laden towels and beards and held up boogeyman signs, then Europeans might rest easier and be more accomidating of every day Muslims, though I still doubt it. Europeans in Europe do not accept Muslims, they never have.

I pity the poor Europeans who must live a life of paranoid fears. Since homocide is far more prevalent than deaths due to terrorism, everyone should be feared as a potential murderer, since European murderers typically don't dress differently from people who don't commit murder.

The Europeans you refer to (the ones who hold such limited views) better start to grow up. They share this planet and don't run it (although it was Europeans who made the last attempts to do so). Time to start dealing with people in a new way.
 
I pity the poor Europeans who must live a life of paranoid fears.
But I think much of Europe carries such paranoid fears about many things. Look at the mad cow disease and dioxine scares, where combined perhaps 200 people died, while on any one day in Europe more than that die in car crashes.
 
Paranoia is certainly not a sound basis for immigration policy or cultural relations. I doubt it helps at much.
 

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