Islam versus Europe

[Abeja de Almirante]

Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

I would add that Canada has not experienced the same backlash against Muslims because we're mostly a nation of immigrants or descendants of recent immigrants. It's a rare no-Aboriginal Canadian that can trace his family back three or four generations in Canada.

In Europe though, we have not only citizens, but nations of people who trace their cultures in the area back to the days of the Romans and the Dark Ages. Germans, Dutch, French, Italians, Spaniards, Danes, etc...these are not simply states listed on a birth certificate or passport...they are peoples or nations. Yes, most of the Europeans nations have chosen to join the European Union (though I suspect most back in the 1960s envisioned more of a economic free trade zone more than today's bureaucratic Brussels led machine).

My point is, in Canada, anyone is accepted as a Canadian; get your citizenship, or by luck be born here, and you're as Canadian as any figure from our national history. This is simply not the case in Europe, with the possible exception of Britain. Germans know who Germans are, and that does not include Muslims, or Danes, Dutch & French for that matter. My country Spain was overrun by Muslims from 710 AD until the late 1400's, with forced expulsions beginning in the 1200s. I forsee a day that Europe will again forcibly expell both naturalized and immigrant Muslims, or worse. There is a reason I left Europe for Canada, and part of that is the coming storm between the nations of Europe and the Muslim horde. I fear war and violence along the lines of Hitler and Stalin may be possible.

 

[blixa442]

Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

I agree with your assessment. IEuropean history is regularly punctuated by collective bloodbaths and 21st century will not be any different. Given the European mentality coupled with Muslim isolation it's difficult not to see serious conflicts down the line. I think we'll be seeing a lot more European immigration in the next couple decades, especially from the western parts of... Eurabia.

 

[bizorky]

Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

I forsee a day that Europe will again forcibly expell both naturalized and immigrant Muslims, or worse. There is a reason I left Europe for Canada, and part of that is the coming storm between the nations of Europe and the Muslim horde. I fear war and violence along the lines of Hitler and Stalin may be possible.

That's a rather bleak view. Do you believe there is nothing that can be done to prevent such silliness?

 

[ganjavih]

Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

That's a rather bleak view.

And an unrealistic one.

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

That's a rather bleak view. Do you believe there is nothing that can be done to prevent such silliness?

The Europeans do not want nor welcome the Muslims, while the Muslims have little interest in intergrating into the mainstream European culture (not that they'd be welcome if they tried). Paris is essentially under siege, with a ring of poverty striken, angry Muslim populations surrounding the city. As we recently saw, these populations will attack and riot against the mainstream Europeans when opportunity and supposed justification collide.

It is a bleak view. I imagine in the 1920s, no one could have forseen the coming Holocaust, but it the foundations were there aplenty: an unwelcome and unintergrated (with the mainstream Euros) Jewish population, a people that at the time no one cared about (hence Canada and others refusing Jewish refugees). If today, France was to begin mass arrests, detentions and deportations of its Muslim populations (both immigrants and French-born), the USA and most of the west wouldn't care, and refugees from France would be refused by most western nations, including, likely, Canada.

 

[shawnmicallef]

Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

How is many Torontonians speaking broken english "serious and unfortunately true"? That's been the Canadian story all along. All those Ukranians had broken english when they settled the west. Then their kids have unbroken english. Then insert whatever ethnicity you want, and the story is the same. Where is the problem?

 

[blixa442]

Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

Ultimately it'll all come down to demographics. As it stands there's way more Muslims being born in Europe than natives. What this will result in no one really knows, but considering the current wave of problems it's hard to see this development as something that's positive.

 

[ganjavih]

Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

I forsee a day that Europe will again forcibly expell both naturalized and immigrant Muslims, or worse.

Sure Europe may not be as open and tolerant as Canada, but to suggest that there are ethnic cleansing plans in the works is a bit silly and quite frankly insulting to Europeans.

 

[bizorky]

Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

It is a bleak view. I imagine in the 1920s, no one could have forseen the coming Holocaust, but it the foundations were there aplenty: an unwelcome and unintergrated (with the mainstream Euros) Jewish population, a people that at the time no one cared about (hence Canada and others refusing Jewish refugees). If today, France was to begin mass arrests, detentions and deportations of its Muslim populations (both immigrants and French-born), the USA and most of the west wouldn't care, and refugees from France would be refused by most western nations, including, likely, Canada.

Your reference to Jewish populations in Europe is certainly not accurate. A very considerable portion of the Jewish population was quite integrated into the contemporary culture of many European countries. Anti-semitism was maintained (by those holding such a view) as a means to separating out Jewish people solely on the basis of religion, whether practiced or not.

The issue at hand here is that there is little desire on the part of some Europeans to see Muslim populations accepted as citizens. A people who constantly face rejection, prejudice or who must listen to debates about mass deportation can't be blamed for holding poor attitudes. Nationality in Europe is too bound up in history, which is ironic since a main agenda of the EU is to reduce the nationalistic barriers and differences that were the cause of European wars. Yet here we see a new barrier being constructed to keep the "outsiders" out.

If France was to take up mass arrests, detentions and expulsions, as you allude to, it would be carrying out a practice of ethnic cleansing, nothing less.

 

[ronald1987]

Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

This certainly is an interresting discussion!
I remember, about 3 years ago, I had discussions during 'politics and society' class in highschool. I used to allways point out that Islam does have some properties that do not fit very well in Europe. Everyone used to disagree with me, some people even called me racist.
One thing is for certain, Pim Fortuyn has definitely made Islam a debate-able subject in our society. That's why he was so popular. Now we can stand up and speak our minds. It's too bad though that we tend to be silenced once more, take all the death threats against politicians for example. I have got tremendous respect for all the politicians like Wilders and Hirsi Ali that speak their minds and criticize certain aspects of Islam. They still speak their minds, after two criticizers of Islam have been murdered in this country.
On the other hand, it's frustrating is that the muslim community feels increasingly isolated from the rest of the population. If you feel marginalized all the time, you're not going to bother being a good citizen. You're going to riot, like French muslims did. This way, the gap between muslims and natives continues to grow.

We have to remember that Muslims in North America are more often relatively wealthy, white-collar, professional and highly educated. Muslims in Europe are poorer, blue-collar, working class and not as learned. This by itself goes a long way in explaining the difference in reaction by Muslims on this side of the Atlantic

True, at my university, out of 280 first-year students (Humand Geography and Planning), only 5 are muslims.
There are 30,000 students studying at my university. Surprisingly, most of the muslims to be found at the university are cleaners, painters, handymen, etc.

 

[bizorky]

Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

I am still not sure why there is such an anti-muslim sentiment on the part of so many Europeans. Is it because the people look different? Is it a fear of Islam? Is it unconscious nationalism? European friends and family members are never quite clear as to what the problem is exactly.

When it comes to religious beliefs, there are plenty of things in Christianity that are pretty closed-minded and dogmatic, so to single out Islamic beliefs for its limited point of view is more than a little unfair.

Surely people can make distinctions between the very small number of individuals who want to act violently, and the far more significant population at large.

 

[afransen TO]

Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

I think what Europeans find unsettling about Islam is that that religion has fundamentally different values when it comes to liberalism and a general "live or let live" attitude. See Afghani man sentenced to death for converting to Christianity....


That said, there are plenty of Muslims at my university, Waterloo. True, many arts programs tend to be dominated by whites (geography, planning, english, etc. while others like econ less so), mathematics, engineering and science all have healthy numbers of muslims. I think this stems more from immigrant parents' predilection for their children to enroll in technical (and thus, better paying) program...

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

^UTSC is exactly the same. The (few) white kids are asking me questions about music, film and art indexes. The Muslim kids about econ, chemistry and bio.

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

The Muslim kids about...chemistry and bio.

Hmmm...and pilot lessons? :b

Europeans have never been welcoming of Muslims. There's a long history there, with much of today's southern Europe, from Spain to the Balkans being invaded and occupied by Muslim hordes. Just ask the Armenian-Christians if life under Ottoman-Turkish rule was pleasant. Or the Spanish who lived under the Umayyad Caliphate.

Muslims and Europeans can not live together peacefully IN Europe. In the Europeans' eyes, Europe is for the Europeans, and to us Canadians, it might sound terribly non-pc, but that means white and Christian. It is only a matter of time before the Europeans rise up and throw out the Muslims. And yes, it will be ethnic cleansing, but the western world won't care about Muslims.

 

[AK frm TO]

Re: We should fear Holland’s silence

I think what Europeans find unsettling about Islam is that that religion has fundamentally different values when it comes to liberalism and a general "live or let live" attitude. See Afghani man sentenced to death for converting to Christianity....

Comparable to Christianity I would hardly say that Islam has significantly differing values and beliefs. In fact, many would say they are quite similar. It is only as a result of global terrorism and a perceived invasion by a “Muslim horde,†that a strong them vs. us attitude has emerged. I’m definitely not saying that there was never a feeling division between Europeans and Muslims, just that in the modern context it is being used to satisfy and justify xenophobic attitudes. Also it important to not confuse the core values associated with secularism with those of religion. I would say that many Islamic nations show little or no resemblance to secularist ideals.

Muslims living in Western nations are highly unlikely to espouse a “convert or die†philosophy to their masses. That to me is not the major issue in countries like France, and to compare this type of archaic tribal thinking to the majority of Muslims in Europe is very much naive. To me discrimination is the underlying problem in Europe. The Europeans want immigrants to more than just integrate, they want them to assimilate; and then even upon assimilation these same immigrants face discrimination. I doubt a young generation of born and bred French Muslims, looking for purpose and employment, are trying to impose their religious views on the rest of the Country. What’s more likely is they feel disenfranchised, or even betrayed; they want very much to be a part of the Country, but the Country seems to want to have nothing to do with them…unless of course you’re a dishwasher, janitor, laborer, etc. The disproportionate unemployment and education figures are a pretty clear indicator of the problem. The more discrimination practiced in these Countries, the more marginalized the Muslim community will feel, and the more likely they will revert to extremism. Canada, which does not share these same statistics, does not –as expected– share these same social inequalities and problems.

A fitting example is the conversation I had with a new Pakistani engineer hired at work through the government-sponsored Career Bridge program. I asked him what his thoughts were on this country, and he told me straight-up: “Ifeel accepted.â€