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Is LRT's repuation damaged permanently?

denfromoakvillemilton said:
The entire RT (subways, RT, Streetcars) should be 24 hrs. People claim it's shut over night to allow for repairs, but they still shut down University below Bloor and entire thirds of the Bloor Danforth all the time. Streetcars too. Just make the subway frequency even ten minutes overnight.
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I disagree. The subway shouldn't run all night because it gets extremely low ridership. While it's shut down there is lots of critical work that gets done such as cleaning and maintenance. Some of the more complicated work takes longer so the service occasionally needs to be interrupted beyond the night shift (e.g installing new ATC signals). The NYC subway runs 24/7, which sounds nice but it's difficult to perform this work when the system never shuts down, so the city opts to do it on weekends when it's less busy. However the service gets really messed up. Some stations will be out of service, or some trains will randomly switch to different tunnels, and the only warnings you get are from a sign or webpage with a long list of service advisories like "no trains on the Lexington line between brooklyn bridge and woodlawn, transfer between [4] and [N][Q] trains at canal st or 14th st". Every weekend it will be something different. Trust me it's not pretty, and the subway never gets cleaned very well compared to Toronto. Running trains 24/7 is not worth it unless it will be well used. At most, perhaps the Yonge line could run 24/7 from Union to Eglinton, but the Sheppard or Spadina lines would be overkill.
 
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salsa said:
I disagree. The subway shouldn't run all night because it gets extremely low ridership. While it's shut down there is lots of critical work that gets done such as cleaning and maintenance. Some of the more complicated work takes longer so the service occasionally needs to be interrupted beyond the night shift (e.g installing new ATC signals). The NYC subway runs 24/7, which sounds nice but it's difficult to perform this work when the system never shuts down, so the city opts to do it on weekends when it's less busy. However the service gets really messed up. Some stations will be out of service, or some trains will randomly switch to different tunnels, and the only warnings you get are from a sign or webpage with a long list of service advisories like "no trains on the Lexington line between brooklyn bridge and woodlawn, transfer between [4] and [N][Q] trains at canal st or 14th st". Every weekend it will be something different. Trust me it's not pretty, and the subway never gets cleaned very well compared to Toronto. Running trains 24/7 is not worth it unless it will be well used. At most, perhaps the Yonge line could run 24/7 from Union to Eglinton, but the Sheppard or Spadina lines would be overkill.
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Fair point. I guess Toronto is not really a 24 hour city to begin with, so it would be pointless.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Fair point. I guess Toronto is not really a 24 hour city to begin with, so it would be pointless.
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Not even Manhatten is a 24 hour city. You can run from Central Park to Wall St. down the center of 6th Ave/Church at 4am and barely get honked at.


Maintenance in Toronto would mean a single track sections, keeping frequencies down to 15 or 20 minutes. Unfortunately, stations would also need to be fully manned for emergency purposes if nothing else; a train unloading due to fire could still be 1000 people.

I'd much rather have a bus with 30 second frequencies than a subway with 20 minute frequencies; particularly since the bus is still cheaper to operate. Traffic at 4am is non-existent; buses make pretty good time.

If we were going to spend money on night service, I'd like to see 15 minute or better frequencies across the network.
 
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rbt said:
Not even Manhatten is a 24 hour city. You can run from Central Park to Wall St. down the center of 6th Ave/Church at 4am and barely get honked at.


Maintenance in Toronto would mean a single track sections, keeping frequencies down to 15 or 20 minutes. Unfortunately, stations would also need to be fully manned for emergency purposes if nothing else; a train unloading due to fire could still be 1000 people.

I'd much rather have a bus with 30 second frequencies than a subway with 20 minute frequencies; particularly since the bus is still cheaper to operate. Traffic at 4am is non-existent; buses make pretty good time.
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Makes sense. I just though of the idea because I think the system sitting around idle like that is part of why there was problems.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Makes sense. I just though of the idea because I think the system sitting around idle like that is part of why there was problems.
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Yeah. On nights like Saturday and tonight, TTC could probably run 2 or 3 trains in the open areas to shake ice off the rails. It's still not worth manning the stations for a partial service for customers.

The last stats I know of for overnight service is the 2005 review when service was greatly enhanced. The peak is weekdays (1am to 6am, Saturday has higher numbers but service runs till 9am Sunday). The 320 Yonge carried about 2100 passengers on a weekday evening; or about 600 per hour.

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/reports/review_of_overnight_services_january2005.pdf

If the 320 did hit capacity for bus, I'd be tempted to boost frequencies on the 303 (Don Mills) and 310 (Bathurst) and loop both through downtown/entertainment district. Or, run a night tram from Broadview to Bathurst Station via King; and integrate/terminate a number of night bus routes at those 2 stations. Call it DRL-light for night service.
 
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Subways could be open 24/7, just make trains only every 10-15 minutes. In NYC while they are cleaning, you just walk around the cleaning/construction. It's not that hard :rip:

Then again, this would involve fare operators at each station overnight, unlike NYC where all they have is machines.
 
devjohnson said:
Subways could be open 24/7, just make trains only every 10-15 minutes. In NYC while they are cleaning, you just walk around the cleaning/construction. It's not that hard :rip:

Then again, this would involve fare operators at each station overnight, unlike NYC where all they have is machines.
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Based on my understanding of Andy Byford's answers to why the subway opens late on Sunday, my understanding is that the repairs require that the tunnel not to be in use for a prolonged period of time for the repairs needed, since it takes a long time to set up & disassemble whatever equipment is used.

The fact that the tunnel repair north of Eglinton also requires early closure leads me to think the tunnels need to be closed for long periods of time in order to do the repairs.

It's not just cleaning, it's tunnel & track maintenance and repair.
 
ehlow said:
Based on my understanding of Andy Byford's answers to why the subway opens late on Sunday, my understanding is that the repairs require that the tunnel not to be in use for a prolonged period of time for the repairs needed, since it takes a long time to set up & disassemble whatever equipment is used.

The fact that the tunnel repair north of Eglinton also requires early closure leads me to think the tunnels need to be closed for long periods of time in order to do the repairs.

It's not just cleaning, it's tunnel & track maintenance and repair.
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I think there's a planned shut down of the yonge tunnerl for 2016 as well still to. The repairs are heavy. I think the LRTs could at least operate 24/7.
 
devjohnson said:
Subways could be open 24/7, just make trains only every 10-15 minutes. In NYC while they are cleaning, you just walk around the cleaning/construction. It's not that hard :rip:

Then again, this would involve fare operators at each station overnight, unlike NYC where all they have is machines.
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Manhattan has 5 parallel subway lines, so they can afford to shut down an entire line for track maintenance and repairs while leaving other lines running 24/7. They also have 4 tracks on almost every line meaning they can shut down the outer tracks for repairs and run trains on the inner tracks 24/7. We don't have either of those luxuries.
 
LNahid2000 said:
Manhattan has 5 parallel subway lines, so they can afford to shut down an entire line for track maintenance and repairs while leaving other lines running 24/7. They also have 4 tracks on almost every line meaning they can shut down the outer tracks for repairs and run trains on the inner tracks 24/7. We don't have either of those luxuries.
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Bingo, that's one of the reasons we want a grid-like system. Another is that it spreads out demand so if there's a problem with one line or if the line is over-capacity, you can take another route. It doesn't really matter whether these lines are subway, LRT or BRT, as long as they are reliable, frequent & reasonably fast (not as slow as our local buses & streetcars, not saying it has to be extremely fast, just as fast as say the Bloor subway).

Also, our concession road street system is a grid so it's easy to learn a transit system that follows that, and maximizes coverage creating the sense that you can go anywhere. Not saying it must conform to a strict grid by the way, but our buses are already configured along the major concession roads.
 
salsa said:
I disagree. The subway shouldn't run all night because it gets extremely low ridership. While it's shut down there is lots of critical work that gets done such as cleaning and maintenance. Some of the more complicated work takes longer so the service occasionally needs to be interrupted beyond the night shift (e.g installing new ATC signals). The NYC subway runs 24/7, which sounds nice but it's difficult to perform this work when the system never shuts down, so the city opts to do it on weekends when it's less busy. However the service gets really messed up. Some stations will be out of service, or some trains will randomly switch to different tunnels, and the only warnings you get are from a sign or webpage with a long list of service advisories like "no trains on the Lexington line between brooklyn bridge and woodlawn, transfer between [4] and [N][Q] trains at canal st or 14th st". Every weekend it will be something different. Trust me it's not pretty, and the subway never gets cleaned very well compared to Toronto. Running trains 24/7 is not worth it unless it will be well used. At most, perhaps the Yonge line could run 24/7 from Union to Eglinton, but the Sheppard or Spadina lines would be overkill.
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Thank you.

I never got this obsession some people have with a 24 hour subway. New York has it, but it prevents them from doing routine maintenance easily and, to be frank, service in New York after 3 AM is so piss poor that I'd rather just take a night bus. I once waited 45 minutes for a 6 train on the Lexington line at 4 in the morning, which makes that event the longest I've ever waited for a rapid transit train anywhere in the world. This was not an isolated incident; I waited 30 minutes for a J train out of Williamsburg another time I visited and at least 20 minutes for a 1 train a few years back.

Frankly, the TTC's night service is not half bad. Waiting 5 minutes for a 320 bus that takes you all the way to Steeles is more than I would ever ask for.
 
Hipster Duck said:
Thank you.

I never got this obsession some people have with a 24 hour subway. New York has it, but it prevents them from doing routine maintenance easily and, to be frank, service in New York after 3 AM is so piss poor that I'd rather just take a night bus. I once waited 45 minutes for a 6 train on the Lexington line at 4 in the morning, which makes that event the longest I've ever waited for a rapid transit train anywhere in the world. This was not an isolated incident; I waited 30 minutes for a J train out of Williamsburg another time I visited and at least 20 minutes for a 1 train a few years back.

Frankly, the TTC's night service is not half bad. Waiting 5 minutes for a 320 bus that takes you all the way to Steeles is more than I would ever ask for.
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The PATH train between New Jersey & Manhattan is also really bad at night. We waited for one train, it was completely packed full, then we had to wait for the next train for 30 minutes.
 
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LNahid2000 said:
The other problem with running trains 24/7 is that homeless people end up sleeping on them all night. This is a common occurrence in New York, especially on the E Train since it is the only MTA line completely underground.
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Yes.
This alone serves a reason the subway shouldn't be 24/7. TTC's schedule is good enough I would say. Only thing is subway opens too late Sunday morning (an issue if you have an early flight to catch). Otherwise, it is quite good.

If one really needs to stay till 3am for nightlife, well, they should be paying for the service someone provides at that time (a cab).
 
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