Intercity Bus Services

[ShonTron]

London's VIA and Greyhound stations are only a block and a half apart from each other. It was too bad that the VIA station wasn't built to accommodate buses as well - common facilities such as washrooms, a waiting area (though VIA Business Class passengers would still enjoy their own lounge), and security would be beneficial.

 

[reaperexpress]

London's VIA and Greyhound stations are only a block and a half apart from each other. It was too bad that the VIA station wasn't built to accommodate buses as well - common facilities such as washrooms, a waiting area (though VIA Business Class passengers would still enjoy their own lounge), and security would be beneficial.

Agreed. Actually, on that note I made a lot of sacrifices in terms of accuracy in the London area. I showed a single dot with a VIA connection, but actually it's a bunch of stops scattered all over the place. As you mentioned, the Greyhound terminal is a block away from the VIA station. But on top of that, the Robert Q pickup location is listed as 105 Wharncliffe Rd. S. (about 5 blocks SW of the Greyhound terminal). And to add further confusion, Robert Q buses are included as connections in VIA's trip planner, which suggests that they actually serve the VIA station as well, even though there's no mention of this on the Robert Q website.

I figure that if this were an actual map for navigation, it would have a blown-up inset of downtown London showing the various stops.

 

[Lernd2LuvTO]

Here's my first attempt at a schematic map for Ontario's intercity buses.

This is awesome. I was just about to correct you about the frequency on Megabus's Hamilton-Kitchener route (I thought it had been chopped with St. Catharines-Hamilton) when I checked it: 3-4 buses/day. Thanks for picking up on that!

There are a few inaccuracies on here, but you might already be aware of them and not worried about them:
-The last time I checked, many of the Greyhound Toronto-Kitchener express buses stopped in Cambridge.
-Megabus makes a bit of a spider web in Niagara between Port Colborne, Welland, Brock, Niagara Falls, and St. Catharines.

I also really appreciate that you considered integrating the GO map. I suspect that one solution could be some sort of an inset map (treating the 416 and inner ring 905 as if it was the downtown area of a city's mass transit map). If GO were integrated onto an Ontario-wide map, it might be most useful to demonstrate the outer tentacles to smaller cities, like Niagara, Brantford, Orangeville, and Peterborough. These parts of the GO network operate as near alternatives to the private highway coaches. That said, in Niagara, GO has slowly morphed into an almost local service for the majority of runs that aren't express. With the additional stops (including one going into effect today) the Niagara Falls -> Toronto travel time now averages about 3 hours, nearly a full hour longer than GH/MB.

For a decent map of the GO network, as a whole, but in isolation, see: https://mappingtorontotransit.wordpress.com/2016/03/06/the-go-bus-network-map/

 

[reaperexpress]

This is awesome. I was just about to correct you about the frequency on Megabus's Hamilton-Kitchener route (I thought it had been chopped with St. Catharines-Hamilton) when I checked it: 3-4 buses/day. Thanks for picking up on that!

I used to take the Kitchener-Hamilton bus relatively frequently, so I was very aware of the service cuts (it used to run every other hour). I also used to take the St. Catharines-Hamilton bus until they chopped it.

There are a few inaccuracies on here, but you might already be aware of them and not worried about them:
-The last time I checked, many of the Greyhound Toronto-Kitchener express buses stopped in Cambridge.

Yeah, oops. I noticed that error just after I posted the map. I also missed the stops between Guelph and the 401: GuelphU, Kortright Road (misspelled as "Kortnight" in the schedule) and Aberfoyle GO. Many schedules also include a stop at "Hwy 407/401, ON" which is apparently 2 minutes away from the Royal York Hotel - I have no idea what that's supposed to be. It's 46 km from the 407/401 interchange to the Royal York, so the buses would need to average 1386 km/h to make it in 2 minutes, which seems a bit unrealistic given the traffic conditions (as well the restrictions on breaking the sound barrier in urban areas).

-Megabus makes a bit of a spider web in Niagara between Port Colborne, Welland, Brock, Niagara Falls, and St. Catharines.

It appears that Megabus/CC has two daily trips to Port Colborne, which each take a different route. One runs via St. Catharines - Brock - Welland - Port Colborne, while the other runs via St. Catharines - Niagara Falls - Welland - Port Colborne. To keep the map simpler, I decided to show the more direct route via Brock as 2 buses per day rather than the separate routes as 1 bus per day each. But looking at the semi-finished map, it looks like it actually wouldn't be too cluttered include both routes separately, so I'll update the map accordingly.

 

[reaperexpress]

Updated my schematic map as per corrections by Lernd2LuvTO:

 

[MisterF]

Updated my schematic map as per corrections by Lernd2LuvTO:

View attachment 104614

Great diagram. GO is an interesting case because on some medium distance routes they've taken most of the market from private services like Greyhound. I'm noticing that a lot of Via Rail stations aren't on the map - are you only including stations that are shared with buses?

Some corrections for Peterborough:
-Peterborough GO is missing
-5 Greyhound buses per day to Toronto
-2 Greyhound buses per day to Ottawa

 

[steveintoronto]

Perhaps they can pull off a Wynne like the ONTC.

Took me a second take to get the word play. It would be Kathartic to hold the system together with Brads.

 

[steveintoronto]

Updated my schematic map as per corrections by Lernd2LuvTO:

Incredibly good. Is this purely a hobby, or do you do similar for work?

 

[T.O.Fanatic]

Here's my first attempt at a schematic map for Ontario's intercity buses.

View attachment 104487

Since frequency varies so massively between the routes, I decided to vary the line thicknesses to reflect it.

The map includes Ontario Northland, since it operates much the same as a private intercity bus carrier. Originally I was going to include GO buses as well, but it was making the area around Toronto completely cluttered with thick green lines. I decided to instead just show GO and VIA connections using icons.

I omitted any routes which have fewer than 1 bus per day, such as the Ontario Northland service from Sudbury to Ottawa.

It's interesting to note that Guelph Central Station and Niagara Falls station are the only places where VIA, GO and intercity buses share a hub (or have adjacent hubs). Kitchener Central Station will join that list when it eventually gets built. I think that consolidating terminals could have a fairly significant benefit to all operators involved, since the easier connections open up a wider range of convenient origin-destination pairs.[/QUOTET]

This is definitely what we were trying to accomplish! Only with much better skill on your part. Mind if we showcase it on the blog? Maybe you'd like to do a guest post?

 

[Lernd2LuvTO]

GO is an interesting case because on some medium distance routes they've taken most of the market from private services like Greyhound.

I take it that you're writing this from the Peterborough perspective? I ask because I'm writing from Niagara, another spoke where this might be the case.

As a rider, I'm far less concerned about who "takes the market", and far more concerned about how many places we can get to, how easily, and how often. This being the case, from your vantage point, how have things changed with a transition of service options from Greyhound to GO?

From my perspective, with the arrival of GO, my ability to access locations up the QEW through the Niagara Region and along the GO Lakeshore line has improved greatly. Travel to central Toronto has basically remained unchanged: I believe that the number of Coach Canada/Megabus departures now are similar to what they were 10 years ago, although it seems that the price has dropped relative to inflation. The private runs are usually busy, probably because they run express from the main population centres of Niagara Falls and St. Catharines: I save an hour, and often have a better drop off point in both Niagara and Toronto.

The glaring outlier in this story of general improvement is access to Hamiltion. CC/MB used to run regular buses along this route until 2 years ago. http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...ontinue-bus-service-from-hamilton-to-niagara/

According to CC/MB, it's the GO competition that pushed them out, although I don't completely buy the explanation. Whereas CC/MB traveled along Hwy 20 (traveling slowly but offering along the way) to central Hamilton, GO plods along the QEW and only reaches Stoney Creek or Burlington - both awkward trips away from downtown Hamilton or Mac. From my perspective, the introduction of GO as the main way to make the Niagara Falls-Hamilton trip has merely changed the trip from one type of bad to a different type of bad.

I imagine this observation has some similarities, but also some differences, to other locations in the larger network.

 

[steveintoronto]

As a rider, I'm far less concerned about who "takes the market", and far more concerned about how many places we can get to, how easily, and how often. This being the case, from your vantage point, how have things changed with a transition of service options from Greyhound to GO?

There's a number of good points in there worthy of further discussion, which I'm sure others will, but the wild card for me favouring GO, besides the fare and connectivity in most cases, is the the *bike racks* on the front, and any overflow can be put under the single-decker buses, driver and gracious conversation permitting. (If you have quick release wheels, pop the front wheel off to do this, it makes it more compact, and easier to swing under when loading and back out when unloading). I've never had to use the storage space on a DD, but told by some drivers that there's room.

That is a game changer for 'day trippers' like myself. I've been refused travel a number of times on private operators who insist the bike be boxed, *even with two empty bins beneath the bus and a clean machine!* I could understand their reluctance if it was a junker, or a travelling companion's bike a junker, but these are good machines we don't want damaged, and sliding around in the bin isn't going to do it if that's the operator's concern. I've also had private operator drivers say "no problem, but you load and unload it" to which I respond "that is completely understood and appreciated". Carrying a bungy cord or two also helps secure a bike if it goes in the storage space. You can tether it to prevent it sliding around.

But with GO, it's a given. What I do counsel with the racks is the addition of strapping on the rear wheel to the rack with 8" or so of double sided Velcro about half to an inch wide. Especially with quick release wheels, if that wheel comes loose, (and others using the rack can accidentally hook the QR lever) and the securing arm is just holding that wheel, the bike can come flying off. This has happened, albeit they don't like to talk about it. Some US operators now require the Velcro strip, and provide it already attached to the rack. The Velcro weighs about the same as a handkerchief, and goes on and comes off in five seconds or so. Most GO bus drivers now appreciate that you are doubly securing the bike. They are responsible under the HTA for ensuring they carry a secure load, and it gives incredible peace of mind knowing that the bike(s) aren't bouncing in the rack. Some frames are very springy, and multiply the bumps.

 

[MisterF]

I take it that you're writing this from the Peterborough perspective? I ask because I'm writing from Niagara, another spoke where this might be the case.

As a rider, I'm far less concerned about who "takes the market", and far more concerned about how many places we can get to, how easily, and how often. This being the case, from your vantage point, how have things changed with a transition of service options from Greyhound to GO?

From my perspective, with the arrival of GO, my ability to access locations up the QEW through the Niagara Region and along the GO Lakeshore line has improved greatly. Travel to central Toronto has basically remained unchanged: I believe that the number of Coach Canada/Megabus departures now are similar to what they were 10 years ago, although it seems that the price has dropped relative to inflation. The private runs are usually busy, probably because they run express from the main population centres of Niagara Falls and St. Catharines: I save an hour, and often have a better drop off point in both Niagara and Toronto.

The glaring outlier in this story of general improvement is access to Hamiltion. CC/MB used to run regular buses along this route until 2 years ago. http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...ontinue-bus-service-from-hamilton-to-niagara/

According to CC/MB, it's the GO competition that pushed them out, although I don't completely buy the explanation. Whereas CC/MB traveled along Hwy 20 (traveling slowly but offering along the way) to central Hamilton, GO plods along the QEW and only reaches Stoney Creek or Burlington - both awkward trips away from downtown Hamilton or Mac. From my perspective, the introduction of GO as the main way to make the Niagara Falls-Hamilton trip has merely changed the trip from one type of bad to a different type of bad.

I imagine this observation has some similarities, but also some differences, to other locations in the larger network.

I haven't lived in Peterborough in over a decade so I don't know first hand how the introduction of GO service has changed things. But as I understand it, GO has taken most of the market. They have 11 daily buses from Toronto to Peterborough while Greyhound has 5. GO takes you to Oshawa Station to transfer onto a train; Greyhound takes you directly downtown.

 

[reaperexpress]

Great diagram. GO is an interesting case because on some medium distance routes they've taken most of the market from private services like Greyhound. I'm noticing that a lot of Via Rail stations aren't on the map - are you only including stations that are shared with buses?

Yes, very interesting how they're indirectly competing with the private operators. Indirectly being the operative word - you can go from Toronto to Kitchener, Niagara or Peterborough on GO, but in all cases you need to transfer so it's not technically the same route. I.e. it's not Toronto-Kitchener, it's Toronto-Bramalea and Bramalea-Kitchener so technically not direct competition.

VIA icons are shown only where intercity buses serve a train station, or a terminal adjacent to a train station. I'd like to include all of VIA's network, but it would make the map quite a bit more cluttered.

Some corrections for Peterborough:
-Peterborough GO is missing
-5 Greyhound buses per day to Toronto
-2 Greyhound buses per day to Ottawa

Oops again! I meant to check whether GO and Greyhound serve the same terminal, but never got around to it. I also totally forgot to check for the shorter-distance trips on the Toronto-Ottawa via Peterborough route. I partially blame Greyhound.ca's total lack of timetables or maps...

 

[mpd618]

Yes, very interesting how they're indirectly competing with the private operators. Indirectly being the operative word - you can go from Toronto to Kitchener, Niagara or Peterborough on GO, but in all cases you need to transfer so it's not technically the same route. I.e. it's not Toronto-Kitchener, it's Toronto-Bramalea and Bramalea-Kitchener so technically not direct competition.

Why do they care so deeply about this? Is it simply to avoid the perception of competing with Greyhound, or is it because they actually want to be nice to Greyhound?

 

[reaperexpress]

Incredibly good. Is this purely a hobby, or do you do similar for work?

Just a hobby. I just used standard shapes (straight, curve, or 45degree) snapping to a grid (with a few minor adjustments off the grid at the end to make the line spacing look a bit more natural).

This is definitely what we were trying to accomplish! Only with much better skill on your part. Mind if we showcase it on the blog? Maybe you'd like to do a guest post?

Sure, you can show it or whatever, but if you do I'd like to make tweaks and corrections first - I'm sure we'll find plenty more errors in it!

I'd be happy to write a guest post, but I'm afraid I have nothing really to say. You've pretty much covered it all already. Like I said, this particular map is nothing much, just snapping together puzzle pieces to simplify the functional map you already have.