nfitz
Superstar
I don't see how that's a new proposal, given I made the same comment last week - http://www.urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?p=319259
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Ideas for funding the TTC?
- Thread starter kEiThZ
- Start date
kEiThZ
Superstar
Agreed. But I actually don't think a campaign on a congestion charge would hurt any candidate that badly simply because the bulk of those paying the charges would be 905 commuters. A smart candidate would tie the congestion charges to transit improvements for 416 suburban residents thereby making it palatable to the second group most likely to drive.
However, there's a real danger that putting on a congestion charge could well provoke a backlash in the 905. There would be calls to clamp down on Toronto's powers. It could even be enough to get very anti-Toronto politicians elected.
And beyond that there's also concerns about the impact on business, particularly small businesses in the core. Raising the cost of doing business in the core could very well force businesses to migrate out from there. That may or may not be a bad thing. But it's definitely something that any candidate proposing a congestion charge should be mindful of...particularly if the migration could result in these businesses leaving the 416 altogether.
Paleo
Active Member
kettal
Banned
It's an hilarious picture. I imagine those buses wiggling around like worms trying to get back on their feet 
But obviously that is not a typical day.
But obviously that is not a typical day.
mrl14
Active Member
How to fix the TTC's revenue shortfall...
I wanted to get the thoughts of members here on a way to increase revenue for the TTC by $15-$25million per year.
The TTC would run 24/7 from Thurs to Sun. From 1AM to 6AM it would run on a 15-20min schedule similar to what it did for Nuit Blanche, but it would charge a premium fee, about $5/ride. This fee becomes very affordable when you factor in the cost of needing a cab, wait and crowd times on the 300 series buses and the convenience of having the subway take you home.
Metropass holders could buy another pass (or we would increase the same pass) by $15 to allow unlimited rides at any time of the day.
Move away from a coin system and straight to a card swipe system like they have in NYC would allow the subway to operate on minimal staff. We would also transfer drivers from the 300 buses to the subway, so there would be little to no extra cost involved in this switch. Plus it gets the subway running 24/7, something this city REALLY needs.
I read an article that said 70k ppl hit the clubbing district every weekend. Imagine that number alone spending that $5 to get home instead of a $50 cab. Has this been discussed before? Am I completely wrong here?
Let me know your thoughts.
I wanted to get the thoughts of members here on a way to increase revenue for the TTC by $15-$25million per year.
The TTC would run 24/7 from Thurs to Sun. From 1AM to 6AM it would run on a 15-20min schedule similar to what it did for Nuit Blanche, but it would charge a premium fee, about $5/ride. This fee becomes very affordable when you factor in the cost of needing a cab, wait and crowd times on the 300 series buses and the convenience of having the subway take you home.
Metropass holders could buy another pass (or we would increase the same pass) by $15 to allow unlimited rides at any time of the day.
Move away from a coin system and straight to a card swipe system like they have in NYC would allow the subway to operate on minimal staff. We would also transfer drivers from the 300 buses to the subway, so there would be little to no extra cost involved in this switch. Plus it gets the subway running 24/7, something this city REALLY needs.
I read an article that said 70k ppl hit the clubbing district every weekend. Imagine that number alone spending that $5 to get home instead of a $50 cab. Has this been discussed before? Am I completely wrong here?
Let me know your thoughts.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
The introduction of an automated fare system combined with more limited staffing at stations is obviously way, way overdue. As for the overnight service, the main limitation is maintenance. If it were possible to run trains at lower frequencies in the "wrong" direction, trains could bypass areas where work was under way. Right now the signalling system doesn't allow operation in both directions, but that will soon change.
I think it's pretty crazy that they don't keep the subway open until at least 3 on Fridays and Saturdays. That would take barely three hours a week out of the maintenance schedule, and they could surely just hire a few extra workers/improve productivity to make up for the lost time.
I think it's pretty crazy that they don't keep the subway open until at least 3 on Fridays and Saturdays. That would take barely three hours a week out of the maintenance schedule, and they could surely just hire a few extra workers/improve productivity to make up for the lost time.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
I like the idea of the subway staying open later (or all night) but I think there's an issue with your plan.
A premium late night fare can only go so high. A $5 fare times four people is twenty dollars, which will get your group a pretty good distance in a Toronto cab.
The TTC's major issue right now is that it seems to lose money as its ridership grows. More riders = less money. This could purely be a labour and efficiency problem, but given political realities and labour laws, that could be politically difficult to tackle head-on. Alternative solutions include a) punish the riders through steep fare increases and the elimiantion of montly passes, or b) cut service.
Neither of those seem very appealing.
A premium late night fare can only go so high. A $5 fare times four people is twenty dollars, which will get your group a pretty good distance in a Toronto cab.
The TTC's major issue right now is that it seems to lose money as its ridership grows. More riders = less money. This could purely be a labour and efficiency problem, but given political realities and labour laws, that could be politically difficult to tackle head-on. Alternative solutions include a) punish the riders through steep fare increases and the elimiantion of montly passes, or b) cut service.
Neither of those seem very appealing.
doady
Senior Member
TTC needs to introduced timed transfers. They can also contract out service to Mississauga Transit and possibly York Region Transit to save money.
IMO, the recession and the lower than expected ridership it has resulted in must be partly to blame for the TTC's revenue shortfall and it is not a situation unique to the TTC, so maybe we worry over nothing.
IMO, the recession and the lower than expected ridership it has resulted in must be partly to blame for the TTC's revenue shortfall and it is not a situation unique to the TTC, so maybe we worry over nothing.
cdr108
Senior Member
do what most international cities do and base the fee on distance/zones.
eliminate redundant positions such as ticket takers/sellers ... all can be done through automation.
given that TTC has stated more riders are using the monthly pass cards, then the next step is logical as less are already buying individual fares.
they can use those same employees to patrol the stations ... they may not be security, but any additional VISIBLE presence would be better than what's there now.
eliminate redundant positions such as ticket takers/sellers ... all can be done through automation.
given that TTC has stated more riders are using the monthly pass cards, then the next step is logical as less are already buying individual fares.
they can use those same employees to patrol the stations ... they may not be security, but any additional VISIBLE presence would be better than what's there now.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
Ridership is actually higher than expected in Toronto. What's caused a bit of the shortfall (not the whole thing) is more people using monthly passes.
Timed transfers are a great idea, but would also be seen as 'money losers' by some of the crazies who work for the TTC.
Whoaccio
Senior Member
I'm not comfortable with the notion of using fare automation to reduce TTC costs. To begin with, ticket station collectors aren't really such a huge part of the TTC. There are only 69 stations, so at anyone time there would only be a roughly equivalent number of collectors. Most ticket collectors are simultaneously bus/tram drivers that can't be eliminated. Most likely, existing collectors would become "station managers" which just seems like an excuse to bump their pay grade for doing arguably less. All for the low cost of a few hundred million dollars.
In a way, this reminds me of robots in Japan. They spend billions trying to develop robotic nurses to care for their seniors, gynoid lovedolls to service their unromantic youth, exoskeletons to allow dainty women to lift heavy things and robotic dogs to replace... dogs. The common thread being that in each and every case there is a very cheap and effective, non-robotic, solution: import humans to do the job (or, in the robodog case, just breed real dogs...). All of these overpriced productivity boosters just lock out low-paid humans. In Japan at least they can make the argument that for cultural reasons they don't want immigrants and unemployment is low, thereby necessitating robots (I don't buy it, but it has been made). In Toronto we already have a large, and ever expanding, pool of unskilled and unemployed workers, often from immigrant communities, who would love to get paid $10/hour to sit on their ass counting change. Instead we are considering spending a few hundred million dollars to replace the job entirely.
In a way, this reminds me of robots in Japan. They spend billions trying to develop robotic nurses to care for their seniors, gynoid lovedolls to service their unromantic youth, exoskeletons to allow dainty women to lift heavy things and robotic dogs to replace... dogs. The common thread being that in each and every case there is a very cheap and effective, non-robotic, solution: import humans to do the job (or, in the robodog case, just breed real dogs...). All of these overpriced productivity boosters just lock out low-paid humans. In Japan at least they can make the argument that for cultural reasons they don't want immigrants and unemployment is low, thereby necessitating robots (I don't buy it, but it has been made). In Toronto we already have a large, and ever expanding, pool of unskilled and unemployed workers, often from immigrant communities, who would love to get paid $10/hour to sit on their ass counting change. Instead we are considering spending a few hundred million dollars to replace the job entirely.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
The monthly passes/transferable passes thing is one of the TTC's more ridiculous claims. It's blindingly obvious that the reduced fare recovery is because of the large numbers of buses added to the TTC's least busy routes as part of the Ridership Growth Strategy. I'm not saying that's a bad thing at all, but it's obvious that's the cause of the reduced recovery rate.
nfitz
Superstar
I bet the day they have to figure out to program ALL the transfer permutations and combinations into a fare card, is the day that suddenly many in TTC will be in favour of a timed transfer!
Same way that the day we get POP on LRT is the day that there are 5 doors on each vehicle, none of which go by the driver!
I'm sure those fighting battles within TTC for common sense, aren't going to bother fighting too hard for something like timed-transfers, when it's apparent to many that there will be no choice because of future technological changes.
Same way that the day we get POP on LRT is the day that there are 5 doors on each vehicle, none of which go by the driver!
I'm sure those fighting battles within TTC for common sense, aren't going to bother fighting too hard for something like timed-transfers, when it's apparent to many that there will be no choice because of future technological changes.
rbt
Senior Member
This change was budgeted for and did exactly what was predicted to the expense line, which as you indicate, reduced the recovery rate and improved service.
The change that was NOT budgeted for (they missed by ~1%) was the revenue side.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Can this be merged with the thread I started earlier?