Ideas for funding the TTC?

[Woodbridge_Heights]

How about simply returning the TTC's operational funding from the upper levels of gov't. IIRC they are still generating 80+% of their operational funding out of the fare box.

When this was the model for the rest of the world it was closer to 50/50 funding.

 

[lordmandeep]

why not make it more efficient..


Make it more automated and reduce the grossly overpaid fare collectors.

 

[kEiThZ]

How about simply returning the TTC's operational funding from the upper levels of gov't. IIRC they are still generating 80+% of their operational funding out of the fare box.

When this was the model for the rest of the world it was closer to 50/50 funding.

The point of this thread was to brainstorm ideas over and above the obvious "let the government pay more" concept.

 

[jn_12]

Short of changing how its funded re: government subsidization, I'm not sure there's a lot that can be done. Perhaps more advertising at high rates could help a tad, but it wouldn't do a lot.

why not make it more efficient..


Make it more automated and reduce the grossly overpaid fare collectors.

You still need people to man the station. Places like London that are automated still have people there to answer questions and solve any problems people have.

I don't think there's a way to make it more efficient. Efficiency is just a word that sounds like a solution but has no substance. Let's say even if you did find something that can be cut out or reduced, you're not about to make up any ground in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Second_in_pie]

You still need people to man the station. Places like London that are automated still have people there to answer questions and solve any problems people have.

I don't think there's a way to make it more efficient. Efficiency is just a word that sounds like a solution but has no substance. Let's say even if you did find something that can be cut out or reduced, you're not about to make up any ground in the grand scheme of things.

How can you say that there's no way to make it more efficient? There's a slew of different things that could make the system more efficient.

Automate the subway trains, which could save a huge amount of money as well as make the system run faster and with more capacity

Contract out drivers, janitors and ticket booth people, which could save a lot of money as well

Buying articulated and trolley busses. Articulated busses means less busses need to run on a route, which means you save on drivers at rush hour.
Trolley busses can save a lot on fuel and matinence costs for high volume routes like Finch East.

Convert high volume routes to LRT (as they're doing with Transit City, but in the stupidest way possible)

Convert medium volume routes to BRT like Kingston Road, Wilson, and Weston. This will improve travel times, meaning less busses need to go on the route to provide the same level of service. It can also attract new riders to the TTC.

That's just a couple of the huge number of things they could do to make the system more efficient and save a ton of money.

 

[Ryan]

Contract out drivers, janitors and ticket booth people, which could save a lot of money as well

This.

 

[jn_12]

How can you say that there's no way to make it more efficient? There's a slew of different things that could make the system more efficient.

Automate the subway trains, which could save a huge amount of money as well as make the system run faster and with more capacity

Contract out drivers, janitors and ticket booth people, which could save a lot of money as well

The former drivers on the automated trains would just be moved into different roles.
As for the contracting out of service, that's not always best. There's this automatic assumption that the private sector is better run and more efficient. Anyone that has worked in the public service and had a relationship with contracted out workers/companies knows that that argument doesn't hold water. Sure you might save some money, but that's about all you gain, and there's also the fact you just fired hundreds or thousands of people, which has other ramifications.

Buying articulated and trolley busses. Articulated busses means less busses need to run on a route, which means you save on drivers at rush hour.
Trolley busses can save a lot on fuel and matinence costs for high volume routes like Finch East.

Convert high volume routes to LRT (as they're doing with Transit City, but in the stupidest way possible)

How long before you recover the cost of buying those buses and converting high volume routes to LRT? That's not a short term solution to funding problems. And any long term solution has to be rooted in how the TTC is directly funded.

Convert medium volume routes to BRT like Kingston Road, Wilson, and Weston. This will improve travel times, meaning less busses need to go on the route to provide the same level of service. It can also attract new riders to the TTC.

This might be the only realistic example you've provided, and it's so insignificant that I doubt it would make a dent.

That's just a couple of the huge number of things they could do to make the system more efficient and save a ton of money.

Huge costly investments to save money... hmm doesn't add up to me.

 

[Second_in_pie]

The former drivers on the automated trains would just be moved into different roles.

Yeah, isn't that the point?

As for the contracting out of service, that's not always best. There's this automatic assumption that the private sector is better run and more efficient. Anyone that has worked in the public service and had a relationship with contracted out workers/companies knows that that argument doesn't hold water. Sure you might save some money, but that's about all you gain, and there's also the fact you just fired hundreds or thousands of people, which has other ramifications.

It may "not always be best" but it's been shown countless times to work amazingly well. Private contractors tend to make sure they can save as much money, and their employees usually preform much better than City employees. This one should really be a no-brainer.

How long before you recover the cost of buying those buses and converting high volume routes to LRT? That's not a short term solution to funding problems. And any long term solution has to be rooted in how the TTC is directly funded.

First of all, Transit City's already getting funded by higher levels of government. Are you now expecting the TTC to build all it's new improvements without any government funding?

New busses are government funded as well, and not buying any articulated busses just makes absolutely no sense. Pretty stupid on the TTC's part actually.

But if you really agree with what you're saying, that's pretty unrealistic. I guess if that's how you see things, then there really isn't any way to cut TTC costs?

 

[Whoaccio]

Some Profs at UBC did a study of Canadian Crown Corps that were privatized in between 1985-1997 (think, Air Canada, CN Rail, CAMECO, Potash Corp, PetroCan plus a bunch of others) and found that post privatization the companies increased profits, decreased debt ratios and improved efficiency fairly dramatically. CN Rail used to require hundreds of millions in annual subsidies and was constantly loosing market share, now it is one of the biggest and most efficient railway operators on the continent with healthy margins and expanding market cap. A similar World Bank study in '97 found that of 60 privatized companies in a dozen or so countries, on average efficiency rose by 11%, output by 23% and profitability by 45%.

The TTC seems to operate at oddly unhealthy levels. It's just one example, but the very idea of booth monkeys earning six figure salaries is preposterous. No private sector equivalent would pay such a low skill job more than min wage. I'm even surprised a public company would pay that much. I mean, the TTC's labour force shot up by 25% since the '80s, despite ridership falling for most of the time and only recently coming close to earlier highs. Productivity has somehow fallen, which is to my knowledge one of the few examples of a modern workforce declining in productivity.

 

[kEiThZ]

I really think the union in this case is probably a big roadblock to more automation. We should have fare cards with automated turnstiles by now that might allow some stations to be left unmanned. That manpower could be deployed to create proper transit customer service and tourist information kiosk/booths in appropriate places. Rather gruff TTC employees manning a booth as part of light duties, you'd have staff actually trained in customer service, serving customers. It's a crazy concept I know. Better service and lower cost? wow.

I really think that the TTC should have spent the money to get in completely on Presto so that they could eliminate the booth jockey positions as quickly as possible.

Next comes train automation. That's coming. It's something that should be prioritized higher. When it happens we'll be able to really cut back on the number of operators who can all be centrally located in a ops room.

 

[W. K. Lis]

New busses are government funded as well, and not buying any articulated busses just makes absolutely no sense. Pretty stupid on the TTC's part actually.

Unfortunately, most of the bus bays are built for 12 m regular sized bus, not an 18 m articulated bus. They would need to be lengthen, more real estate, less parking spaces (if on-street), and poles moved at turns. (The Dufferin jog removal is helping.)

 

[nfitz]

Given how problematic articulated buses have been for some cities, and how many major cities have dumped them, I'm not seeing any reason to jump up and down about them.

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^ Yet there are many cases where articulated busses have made a huge improvement in service. I think that there are many more cases of that than them being a total waste of money that need to be scrapped.
Name the cities where articulated busses have had a negative impact on service.
Now name all the cities where articulated busses have been used with success. Ottawa, San Francisco, London, Glasgow, (Hong Kong?), Jerusalem, Vancouver, Curitiba, the list goes on.

I have a new proposal though. Ordinarily, one might think to make our downtown routes double-decker busses to save on space so cars can have more room. Since our most heavily used routes are streetcar, I propose a hybrid: Double Decker Streetcar! It's like the new longer streetcars without taking up twice the space! Smart and (possibly) aesthetically pleasing! You know it's a good idea

 

[waterloowarrior]

 

[Admiral Beez]

Miller campaigned in 2003 on putting in a congestion charge - it didn't seem to hurt him.

It didn't hurt him because most people rightly believed he wouldn't follow through with it, or missed the issue entirely.