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I’m tired of the lack of civility downtown

gabe

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GO transit makes it easy for the homeless to get around. This week i took the GO train from Guelph to downtown Toronto, and I saw a few undesirable looking people with garbage bags get on the morning train and they got off at Union Station. There was no transit police checking tickets or proof of payment either.
 

DSC

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GO transit makes it easy for the homeless to get around. This week i took the GO train from Guelph to downtown Toronto, and I saw a few undesirable looking people with garbage bags get on the morning train and they got off at Union Station. There was no transit police checking tickets or proof of payment either.
Not quite sure what you mean by 'undesirable looking people' (carrying accordions? wearing MAGA hats? Vulcans?) - looks like profiling to me and you have no idea if they had tickets.
 

gabe

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Not quite sure what you mean by 'undesirable looking people' (carrying accordions? wearing MAGA hats? Vulcans?) - looks like profiling to me and you have no idea if they had tickets.
Yes i'm profiling them, they may have had tickets. But they were bugging passengers for ciggerets and change, and looked and smelt like they slept on the streets. Do the math.
 

greenleaf

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This whole thread is about symptoms of a low tax city.

We can ask our politicians to raise taxes and invest in our collective humanity. We can build actual affordable housing (we will save loads of money in the long term by not spending the money on emergency medical services) and have services for people who need them and also hire more people to keep our city clean.
 

TheKingEast

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This whole thread is about symptoms of a low tax city.

We can ask our politicians to raise taxes and invest in our collective humanity. We can build actual affordable housing (we will save loads of money in the long term by not spending the money on emergency medical services) and have services for people who need them and also hire more people to keep our city clean.
Higher taxes aren't going to give people manners.
 

DSC

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Higher taxes aren't going to give people manners.
Of course not but many of the complaints in this thread are not about 'entitled' people who watch their phones not who they bump into or shout and scream when they leave high-priced bars and restaurants at midnight but are about disadvantaged people who really need HELP and having higher taxes (in our low tax city) would allow the City to actually offer them some.
 

TheKingEast

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Maybe people will have better manners if they aren’t constantly stressed out about being poor and having decision fatigue and are able to devote more mental energy to more things than basic survival.
Hi don’t believe this either.
 

AlvinofDiaspar

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As a GO rider I have seen my share of suits and dresses with dirt poor manners*. Unlike the homeless, I am not sure what their excuses are, because lack of knowledge or poverty ain't it.

*Not queuing, seat-saving, excessive yammering, backpack-swinging, feet-cushioning, pole-hording, fare-evading, etc, etc.

AoD
 

Northern Light

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Higher taxes aren't going to give people manners.
No, they won't.

However, where some of the complaints here are less about 'manners' and more about people who have hygiene challenges due to homelessness; or act erratically, because they have untreated mental illness/addiction issues; then higher taxes may address some of what is being complained about here.

Supportive housing, affordable housing, universal mental healthcare and pharmacare, a more caring, welcoming and proactive shelter/support system are all things that do require additional tax to fund.

Surprisingly little additional tax in the medium to long term, once savings from incarceration, courts and ERs are taken into account.

However, there would be a need for additional tax even then; and noticeably more in the short-term as investments will precede savings.

Roughly, $280M per year would take every single person in the shelter system in Toronto and give them an apartment.

Throw in making 2,000 of those units 'supportive' (added mental healthcare/addition supports) and you get another 20M per year or so.

Putting aside 'universal programs for one moment; though I favour these; covering the cost of mental health drugs/treatment for roughly 20,000 people more than have such coverage today) would likely cost in the range
of 60M per year.

If the the City bore all of the above costs, you'd be in for 360M or so.

That represents a total tax increase of under 3% for the City of Toronto (above routine inflationary hikes).

Throw in extra investments in maintaining public spaces well (cleaning, litter/dumping removal etc.), more outreach services to the needy, and some modest investments in core public services (transit, libraries, recreation etc.)

And you might end up with an overall tax hike of 6%.

Spread that over 4 years, and get you inflation, plus 1.5% per year or a typical tax hike of 3.5% per year for 4 years. Hardly onerous. Worth every penny if it helps house the majority of the homeless and creates a kinder and more pleasant City for all.
 
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TheKingEast

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As a GO rider I have seen my share of suits and dresses with dirt poor manners*. Unlike the homeless, I am not sure what their excuses are, because lack of knowledge or poverty ain't it.

*Not queuing, seat-saving, excessive yammering, backpack-swinging, feet-cushioning, pole-hording, fare-evading, etc, etc.

AoD
Exactly my point. Has nothing to do with being poor. Some of the richest people out there have piss poor manners. I’m not sure how we got into this discussion tying poor manners to poverty.
 

DSC

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Exactly my point. Has nothing to do with being poor. Some of the richest people out there have piss poor manners. I’m not sure how we got into this discussion tying poor manners to poverty.
Of course 'manners' are not a 'class' thing and poor people can have excellent manners while rich people can be pigs but this discussion was re-started a few weeks ago by Gabe who was clearly describing poor people carrying garbage bags and the thread itself was started by the Admiral posting (ranting) about people muttering to themselves and 'beggars and vagrants" in his neighbourhood.
 

gabe

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No shortage of rich ignorant idiots recklessly driving their lambo's and Porsche's around the streets. They are a bigger pain in the ass and danger to the neighborhood than any homeless person or drug addict. I got an neighbor who has an insanely loud Lamborghini, he zooms up the street like's in the Toronto Indy, one of these days he's going to crash that thing and kill someone.

I'm tried of lack of civility on the roads! Everyday I risk life and limb crossing the streets of Toronto with so many aggressive, crazy drivers on the road.
 

Towered

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Article in the Globe today about the link between yet another safe injection site in Cabbagetown and a 75% spike in the local crime rate that has many residents concerned.
 

TrickyRicky

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I think the discussion here may be straying from the notion of civility.

I believe civility can be maintained by order and that order may be enforced by cultural norms etc.; however ultimately it is more about having a resilience and abundance of psychological or mental energy. This is difficult and increasingly difficult in an urban environment because of the number of human interactions and the competition for resources.

People who are unstable mentally or are pressed to the limit to martial resources (at all levels of society and income) do not have an abundance or resilience of mental energy.

Really though while money and resources matter all of this is really just a state of mind. We can chose to be civil and really that’s all we can do. What other people are doing is making their own choices and we need to accept that.
 
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