News   Dec 20, 2024
 1.3K     7 
News   Dec 20, 2024
 920     2 
News   Dec 20, 2024
 1.8K     0 

How Can Toronto improve? How can Toronto become a better city overall?

Well, parts of them are densely populated and urban. Large parts are not. And there is plenty of outer-borough resentment of Manhattan, which, for example, helped kill plans for congestion charging a little while back.

Still, there's no question New York is having less trouble implementing a progressive, urbanist agenda and that's largely due to a high proportion of the city being 'urban.'

I don't know much about Chicago, but I wonder how governance works there. If anything it seems to have MORE of a suburban outer city than Toronto, and much less in the way of dense non-core inner city neighbourhoods. Yet the downtown is undeniably spectacular.
 
You know, for me it seems that most of this downtown-suburban divide has started in the last few years. I was born in 1985, and for most of the 90s I always felt that the former municipalities of Metro WERE part of Toronto.

Many maps and highway signs reflected this as well. You would be hard-pressed to find a map of Toronto which stopped coverage at Victoria Park or the Humber River, and most region maps showed Metro Toronto AS Toronto. I remember one Ontario road map which showed 'Metropolitan Toronto' as a city rather than a region/county/district. There were not too many road signs letting you know you were moving between municipalities either, and on most highways into the region they would say "Metropolitan Toronto. Population 2,000,000" rather than North York, Etobicoke, etc. You would then see signs directing you to downtown Toronto, rather than the actual municipal city hall.

Growing up in Richmond Hill, I resented my parents for moving me out of the city into the suburbs - the 'city' being Finch and Bathurst. Before amalgamation, I never felt I was at the edge of the city when at Lawrence and Yonge, Pape and Danforth, etc. For the last 20 years, any conflict was mostly between Metro and the 905. Only since Ford has been elected mayor have I seen it seriously shift between Toronto and Metro.
 
Last edited:
You know, for me it seems that most of this downtown-suburban divide has started in the last few years. I was born in 1985, and for most of the 90s I always felt that the former municipalities of Metro WERE part of Toronto.

Many maps and highway signs reflected this as well. You would be hard-pressed to find a map of Toronto which stopped coverage at Victoria Park or the Humber River, and most region maps showed Metro Toronto AS Toronto. I remember one Ontario road map which showed 'Metropolitan Toronto' as a city rather than a region/county/district. There were not too many road signs letting you know you were moving between municipalities either, and on most highways into the region they would say "Metropolitan Toronto. Population 2,000,000" rather than North York, Etobicoke, etc. You would then see signs directing you to downtown Toronto, rather than the actual municipal city hall.

Growing up in Richmond Hill, I resented my parents for moving me out of the city into the suburbs - the 'city' being Finch and Bathurst. Before amalgamation, I never felt I was at the edge of the city when at Lawrence and Yonge, Pape and Danforth, etc. For the last 20 years, any conflict was mostly between Metro and the 905. Only since Ford has been elected mayor have I seen it seriously shift between Toronto and Metro.

Miller got voted not only from downtown, but also from some suburban areas. Twice. I think a lot of people suburbanites who wanted a better downtown backed off when they realised an urban city could involve many lifestyle changes they weren't prepared to make.

I have many friends who sympathise with left wing politicians but get incredibly defensive when I tell them we should give up our cars and focus on rail to ease the gridlock they so often complain about. All of a sudden, people who otherwise would be talking about doing green things and helping the poor, start arguing about how we need to build more highways to accommodate them!

I can understand where they're coming from, but what they are proposing isn't very energy efficient, good for local businesses, local farmers, or the environment.

Electrify, even today I feel well at the edge of the city when at Yonge and Lawrence. I certainly feel like I'm not in Toronto at Islington, too.
 
I really don't see de-amalgamation as the answer. I don't even know if it's possible at this point. Would you deamalgamate all the former boroughs? Or just maybe Scarborough, North York and Etobicoke?

And Etobicoke could join Peel Region.
 
Well, parts of them are densely populated and urban. Large parts are not. And there is plenty of outer-borough resentment of Manhattan, which, for example, helped kill plans for congestion charging a little while back.

Still, there's no question New York is having less trouble implementing a progressive, urbanist agenda and that's largely due to a high proportion of the city being 'urban.'
Obviously population density doesn't tell the whole story, but the Bronx and Brooklin are much more densely populated than old (pre-amalgamation) Toronto - they have between 12,000 and 14,000 people per square km compared to Toronto's 7000. Even Queens is largely comparable to the Danforth or St. Clair West.
 
I agree. And there is a new problem - this current mayor seems to want to kill civic pride. The city elected a mayor who hates the place.

He actually seems to take pleasure in putting Toronto in its place. I'd really like to know if there is anything about Toronto that Rob Ford loves and puts great value in. (besides financial matters) We all know he loves the wealth the city generates for his family's company but beyond that?
 
He actually seems to take pleasure in putting Toronto in its place. I'd really like to know if there is anything about Toronto that Rob Ford loves and puts great value in. (besides financial matters) We all know he loves the wealth the city generates for his family's company but beyond that?


The police force.
 
Just letting you know, this is the dumbest thing I've ever read.
It also plays right into the "holier than thou attitude".

Then I looked at your avatar and thought "gee, what a surprise".

Sensationalist.
Objective.
Discriminatory.

Toronto's problem is that no matter what part of town you're from you're hated. In the four days that I was in New York, I couldn't believe the sense of community and how much everyone loves the city no matter what part of town you were from. It didn't matter if you were from Manhattan or Queens or Brooklyn, you were a "New Yorker" and you had an unequivocal love for your city. Here, Downtoners hate Suburbanites and vice versa and nobody wants to help build a better Toronto for everyone.

I guess you didn't read what I wrote. What I was trying to say was that denser areas are better for people to live in, not that the people who live there are better, or that people in suburban areas should be killed or something. I'm simply saying that suburban planning should be eschewed because it's better for us to live more densely. There is nothing sensationalist or discriminatory about that. I don't understand this notion that saying that one urban design is better than the other is discrimination. Would you say that all kinds of architecture are equally good for people, so as to avoid “discriminating†against the people that live within?

I don't understand what you're saying about my avatar, but it seems inappropriate to criticise my face.

And again, I never said anything about hating anyone; I wasn't criticising the denizens of suburbs, I was criticising the sort of urban planning within which they live.
 
What I was trying to say was that denser areas are better for people to live in, not that the people who live there are better, or that people in suburban areas should be killed or something. I'm simply saying that suburban planning should be eschewed because it's better for us to live more densely. There is nothing sensationalist or discriminatory about that.

You realise that this stance is not the result of scientific study, it is merely your opinion. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to belittle anyone else as they are equally entitled to their opinions.
 
How can Toronto become a better city?

1) Reinstating the original Transit City plan in its entirety would greatly improve the middle suburbs as livable, sustainable communities. - Burying the Eglinton Crosstown, will only further isolate, those living between it's stations.

2) Rezone to encourage higher density along main streets. - There is something very wrong with allow three kilometers of big box retail to line streets like Eglinton, Lawrence, Dundas and Finch.

3) Road Tolls.

4) Dedicated bike lanes that are interconnected. - A good example of this is the bike path along the hydro corridor in Scarborough. Great path, except that it starts nowhere and ends nowhere. If this could connect to the Don Valley bike paths, I suspect it would see plenty of use.

5) Tax incentives for companies willing to relocate and refurbish, the millions of sq. ft. of aging, vacant industrial buildings found throughout the city. - Drive into the 905 and you'll see hundreds of new industrial parks, eating up greenspace. Why? Because in the 905 - taxes are lower, services are roughly the same cost and land is less expensive. From what I understand, land costs don't factor into the decision for most companies, when they relocate. It's the lower costs and taxes.

6) Elect a mayor and council that have an understanding of what makes a city better for ALL of its citizens. - Will never happen. Too many opinions on what people want from their government.
 
How can Toronto become a better city?

1) Reinstating the original Transit City plan in its entirety would greatly improve the middle suburbs as livable, sustainable communities. - Burying the Eglinton Crosstown, will only further isolate, those living between it's stations.

Surely you kid?
 
You realise that this stance is not the result of scientific study, it is merely your opinion. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to belittle anyone else as they are equally entitled to their opinions.

It is the result of thousands of scientific studies. I'm an environmental scientist, I have read hundreds of articles that show suburbs and sprawl as unsustainable environmentally, financially, and from a traffic/transportation standpoint.

This is a video of one of the most respected scientists out there, talking about our ecological footprint and how that ties in to suburbs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLVpk8xAtbM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ3MHq-qtWA&feature=related

The environmental case and the financial case against suburbs go hand in hand. Suburbs cannot sustain subways or constant-service rail without leading to massive financial unrecoverable losses. So highways become more or less the only means of transportation, and they end up like the 401, or like many of the freeways in LA. On top of that, suburban homes are too low density to pay for the appropriate repairing of the streets and highways they use. The number of m2 of asphault that need to be maintained for a suburban person is much much higher than those that would be needed for someone who lives in an urban setting. The solution to this would of course be tolls to pay for the maintenance of roads - but suburban dwellers are always the first to oppose such tolls. Then there's the fact sprawl destroys farmland and by extension either the economy, nature, or both.

When fertile farmland gets built over, forest needs to be destroyed somewhere else to supply the food demand. Therefore those cute backyards full of insecticides and invasive species aren't bringing 'more nature' to the city, they are destroying nature in the wild first and foremost. Likewise, they are using land in a much less wiser way than if one fourth of the farmland had been turned into higher density residential, and the rest was used to feed the people living in that area.

People in the suburbs are responsible for a much larger amount of greenhouse gases and pollution in general than people in the city - mainly because of the dependence on cars and fossil fuels. Switching to alternatives like corn-based fuel would still lead to pollution. Electric cars, while a better alternative, still rely on natural gas and, in most of the world, coal power plants to reload. So unless you are obtaining your electricity from renewable sources you are still contributing to environmental harm.

Also, I don't know if you care or not about local independent businesses, but I do. I think capitalism only works when common people can become successful on the basis of making a better product, as opposed to it all being a matter of advertisement and capital. It is proven beyond any doubt that small independent businesses can thrive in cities, but tend to die out very quickly in suburbia. The low densities coupled with the 'car-dependence' and the lack of stimulation experienced by many who grow up in the suburbs, means people are much more less likely to buy from an unknown business. People in cities are used to diversity and are on average more open to trying new things than their suburban counterparts. Extra densities mean that even if they weren't, cities would still be a better place for independents.

Look no further than craft beer availability. So many major cities' bars and pubs are now serving locally produced better quality beer. Almost no suburban establishments anywhere are. In the suburbs, whoever pays for the ads and the big signs gets the customers independently of the quality of the product.

Crime rates, contrary to popular suburban beliefs, are not higher in cities than in suburbs on a per capita basis UNLESS cities have been abandoned and have become residential areas for lower income individuals and families. But the opposite is also true. Most of the safest metropolitan areas in the world are not suburban in nature.

People are also prouder of living where they live if they are in a city than in a suburb. This is very well documented. You also don't have to try very hard to see examples of this. People in Mississauga houses and restaurants usually displays pictures of European cities like Paris, Geneva, Prague, London, etc. and usually travel (for tourism) to either built-up cities or impressive natural landscapes. Cities (like natural wonders) cause pride and admiration among people.

I could go on forever, really, I've studied this thoroughly. But hopefully you realise that it's not a matter of opinion and 'what you like best' but rather a matter of what leads to healthier more sustainable societies.
 
Last edited:
Rezone to encourage higher density along main streets. - There is something very wrong with allow three kilometers of big box retail to line streets like Eglinton, Lawrence, Dundas and Finch.

This is a good starting point. Rezoning throughout the city to increase densities and encourage development that will foster more walking/biking trips. Something like Treviso at Dufferin and Lawrence and Metropolis at Allen Rd and Sheppard are good examples. These rather isolated condo projects are well located at major cross streets, provide streetfront retail, are easy access to transit and could create a hub for future development.

Imagine 30-50 story point towers at major intersections throughout the city where presently there is nothing more than a suburban style strip mall.

I think opening residential zones to more "work from home uses" would be a valuable rezoning tool. Allow family doctors, dentists, accountants and architects (sole proprietors) to operate from a home based office. This would cut down on car trips by patients and could provide incresed revenues for municipal governemnts.

Allow more commercial space to be rezoned with a residential componant. Throughout the city encourage property owners to "top up" properties with residential. This will increase the rental housing stock, and increase densities where they would have lease efect on existing infrastructure.

If lack of density is the major problem with providing efficient services to the less densly populated areas, increasing density looks like a good place to start.

This talk about deamalgamation makes little sense to me. The GTA and the Golden Horseshoe for that matter are a urban region. Dividing the city at arbitrary lines because of old municipal lines strikes me as an inefficieny project. The population growth of the suburbs is outpacing the city. Seperating the city residents from those who work in the city on the basis of where they sleep is just burying your head in the sand on the issues. Growth outside of the city has an effect as great as growth within the city.

Look at where growth is occuring in the GTA and the rates of growth. These levels of growth will have an effect on the city proper regardless where the urban/suburban line is drawn.

3f0d5e38484ab6bf898bac7e9ef8.jpeg
 
It is the result of thousands of scientific studies. I'm an environmental scientist, I have read hundreds of articles that show suburbs and sprawl as unsustainable both environmentally, financially, and from a traffic/transportation standpoint.

To add:

The urban, walkable city was the template upon which cities were built, spontaneously, for millenia. Even when the car was an available technology, low-density auto-centric development was an exception, rather than the rule, and was only available to a small percentage of people who could afford it. Walkable neighbourhoods prevailed.

Suburbia as we know it was only possible due to very left-leaning, Keynesian policies initiated in the 1930s under FDR. Before then, it was nearly impossible for a private company to build all the amenities of suburbia: public freeways and access roads, parking lots, a more spread out utility infrastructure, because it was not worth the risk. It might have struck the homebuilder of the 1920s as completely ridiculous to provide all these amenities just to build low density housing that had to be moderately priced.

Of course, suburbia stuck because we made regulations that forced it to be the default way of building communities; that doesn't mean it's cheaper or more efficient to do so.
 
Last edited:
Thank you RC8! A clear and most accurate description of the problems associated with suburbs. Still amazes me how some people don't get, or worse, don't care enough to support the changes needed to address these issues. It will take decades to solve these problems. The solutions exist, now to spark up the will of our citizens to implement them.
 

Back
Top