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afransen TO
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Extending the subway to STC means one less transfer for those travelling downtown. May not sound important, but it is, consider the volume.
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Suicidal Gingerbread Man
Guest
I have some friends in Scarborough who drive to Kennedy, then take the subway downtown from there. The goal of expanding the subway to STC should be to get people out of their cars altogether.
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maxy505
Guest
...generating hundreds of millions of dollars in government revenue. Development will pay off the cost of the expansion.
1) The development would have taken place regardless of the subway -- the people living in those condos now wouldn't have been living in cardboard boxes if there were no Sheppard line. I suppose your point is that the subway encouraged development in Toronto (which I agree with), but...
2) Developments in Toronto do not simply make money for the government. They also cost a lot of money. Seeing as Toronto is in a deficit situation right now, further population increase may actually cost us more than is raised in new taxes.
3) Even if a particualr expenditure breaks even or better, that doesn't make it a good one. There were many other options that the money could have been used for -- other subway lines, highways, SkyDome II, cultural funding, child care, tax break, reducing TTC fare, etc. As it sits now I don't think the Sheppard line was a very good value; once it's extended, it'll be worth it. But the longer it sits there stub-like the less payback there will be.
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roch5220
Guest
Extending the subway to STC means one less transfer for those travelling downtown. May not sound important, but it is, consider the volume.
Thats what I suggest as well before, to extend the Sheppard line to STC as atleast an alternative route for those taking the SRT. It could also be done in conjuction with taking the SRT out of service to deal with its capacity issues, but supposively from the people from Scarborough here, its not an attractive option.
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Suicidal Gingerbread Man
Guest
1) The development would have taken place regardless of the subway -- the people living in those condos now wouldn't have been living in cardboard boxes if there were no Sheppard line. I suppose your point is that the subway encouraged development in Toronto (which I agree with), but...
Actually, subways increase property values for all areas in its vicinity. The developers who own property near the proposed Spadina extension to Vaughan are going to see their property values shoot up, which means increased property tax revenue for the city.
I feel cities should build subways for future growth. Did Bloor even meet today's criteria for subway expansion when they first started work on the B-D line?
Probably the most disturbing thing about the latest round of subway expansion talk is the fact that politicians want the subway to be commuter rail for the suburbs, like GO. It should be expanded to get more Torontonians out of their cars, and encourage growth along major corridors.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
"Which is why I said it was mutually exclusive. "
You said the Spadina extension and the Yonge line are mutually exclusive - they're not. Steeles West and Finch West alone see a combined ridership of over 50,000 a day. How many of these rides continue on to the subway? A huge number, a significant percentage of Finch station's ridership. Sure, it's insignificant compared to the ridership of the entire subway system, as you pointed out, but who cares? Comparing the localized effects of diverted riders at one station with the daily total of subway riders across the city is irrelevant.
"Comparing ridership on a subway line vs the SRT is like comparing the SRT to a bus route."
The SRT corridor is not running at capacity, just as the Sheppard line is not - if more, longer trains were available, they could be run, increasing the SRT's capacity to something much closer to a full subway, just as the Sheppard line will one day support full trains and higher frequencies.
"Anyone have any word on the CDN Tire Development?"
I'm worried it might have to wait until the next condo cycle revs up...unless there are no more real estate cycles, just constant growth. The plan is massive and there's so many other condos going up or have just gone up in the area that I think even a CityPlace North phase might be a slow sell.
"Thats what I suggest as well before, to extend the Sheppard line to STC as atleast an alternative route for those taking the SRT."
Sorry, it won't work. You'd be asking people to voluntarily add 30 minutes to their commute each way.
You said the Spadina extension and the Yonge line are mutually exclusive - they're not. Steeles West and Finch West alone see a combined ridership of over 50,000 a day. How many of these rides continue on to the subway? A huge number, a significant percentage of Finch station's ridership. Sure, it's insignificant compared to the ridership of the entire subway system, as you pointed out, but who cares? Comparing the localized effects of diverted riders at one station with the daily total of subway riders across the city is irrelevant.
"Comparing ridership on a subway line vs the SRT is like comparing the SRT to a bus route."
The SRT corridor is not running at capacity, just as the Sheppard line is not - if more, longer trains were available, they could be run, increasing the SRT's capacity to something much closer to a full subway, just as the Sheppard line will one day support full trains and higher frequencies.
"Anyone have any word on the CDN Tire Development?"
I'm worried it might have to wait until the next condo cycle revs up...unless there are no more real estate cycles, just constant growth. The plan is massive and there's so many other condos going up or have just gone up in the area that I think even a CityPlace North phase might be a slow sell.
"Thats what I suggest as well before, to extend the Sheppard line to STC as atleast an alternative route for those taking the SRT."
Sorry, it won't work. You'd be asking people to voluntarily add 30 minutes to their commute each way.
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jordancerovic
Guest
"Sorry, it won't work. You'd be asking people to voluntarily add 30 minutes to their commute each way."
Huh? I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. First, not everyone who takes the SRT and then the BD is trying to get downtown. Many SRT riders who take bus routes north from the BD line, or take the Yonge line north from Yonge and Bloor would be served by the STC extension. Furthermore, the line would stimulate ridership in northern Scarborough and eastern North York, where it's quite hard to get around with the TTC, from personal experience, as you're usually looking at a lengthy (and possibly out of the way) bus ride to the BD line.
Second, I don't understand the 30 minute figure. It would take more or less the same amount of time to go from STC to Yonge-Sheppard as it would to go from STC to Kennedy to Yonge-Bloor, if not less. Going south from Sheppard would take, what, maybe 10-15 minutes longer than going south from Bloor, so where do you get 30 minutes?
Huh? I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. First, not everyone who takes the SRT and then the BD is trying to get downtown. Many SRT riders who take bus routes north from the BD line, or take the Yonge line north from Yonge and Bloor would be served by the STC extension. Furthermore, the line would stimulate ridership in northern Scarborough and eastern North York, where it's quite hard to get around with the TTC, from personal experience, as you're usually looking at a lengthy (and possibly out of the way) bus ride to the BD line.
Second, I don't understand the 30 minute figure. It would take more or less the same amount of time to go from STC to Yonge-Sheppard as it would to go from STC to Kennedy to Yonge-Bloor, if not less. Going south from Sheppard would take, what, maybe 10-15 minutes longer than going south from Bloor, so where do you get 30 minutes?
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roch5220
Guest
ou said the Spadina extension and the Yonge line are mutually exclusive
... because they are not extending the subway to York U to act as a relief line from the Yonge Line. Plus, the 50K rides you re saying, how many would actually end up on Spadina Line? Some will remain to take the existing bus lines depending on where they are going. The line of discussion was that the VCC extension was need (one of the reasons) to divert ridership from Yonge Line, with the source being the RTES - which was incorrect if you read the RTES report, they stated a loop was need to act as a relief. Not to further extend spadina line north.
"The SRT corridor is not running at capacity, just as the Sheppard line is not "
He was comparing subway line with the SRT line ridership, in which the subway line has 8xs the capacity. Hence, he was saying that SHeppard ridership was ok because it had similar ridership to the SRT. If you are going to critque someones opinion, makesure you understand first the discussion thread. It had nothing to do with actual ridership issues of the SRT.
"Sorry, it won't work. You'd be asking people to voluntarily add 30 minutes to their commute each way. "
I am as well confused as you keep on throwing this number around. Look at a map, you have to go north a little bit, but other than that, its almost like a square. Doesn't matter if you take the bottom or top 'L', its the same distance. I figure it would probably take 10 minutes more, vs. the current SRT. Last time I studied both routes, and thought you were way off, but noone else said anything so I assumed you must be right.
But its up to you. Wouldn't you rather extend the sheppard line first so you have an alternative route when the eventually close to replace the SRT?
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TdotTrickyRicky
Guest
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet in the thread but the 404/401 interchange is a notable office employment node so the subway acts as a useful reverse commute for some employees (several people I know live downtown or along the Yonge line and use this commuter pattern). Because downtown residents don't need a car to live, they in some ways are more likely to adopt a suburban mass transit route if it conveniently connects to an employment node. On the other hand suburban people have more of a choice because a car is essential to their life. Given the choice they will almost always choose the car and hey why not because you pay through the nose to drive a car you might as well drive.
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miketoronto
Guest
Huh? I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. First, not everyone who takes the SRT and then the BD is trying to get downtown.
You need to come to Scar and talk to the riders. Most people who do take the SRT are going downtown. Its the only place in Toronto the majority of people will take transit to.
Without downtown, TTC's ridership including the SRT would probably be cut by 90%. Downtown is what drives TTC ridership and SRT ridership. To think diverting people to Sheppard-Yonge or whatever, via Sheppard won't make a difference because they are not all going to Bloor-Yonge, is wrong.
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rbtaylor
Guest
Depends on the government. Federal and provincial governments make out quite well -- particularly when construction workers can find work during the winter.2) Developments in Toronto do not simply make money for the government. They also cost a lot of money. Seeing as Toronto is in a deficit situation right now, further population increase may actually cost us more than is raised in new taxes.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
Fine, 20 minutes (say 15+ minutes plus a transfer, although many would now be able to avoid transferring onto Yonge south of Bloor - hello overcrowding), not 30...big deal. "A little bit" north is actually over one concession and the Sheppard route would have 4 more stations.
"First, not everyone who takes the SRT and then the BD is trying to get downtown."
Most are, and the only alternate route that I can see that would work for those that are not is an Eglinton East line.
"Furthermore, the line would stimulate ridership in northern Scarborough and eastern North York, where it's quite hard to get around with the TTC, from personal experience, as you're usually looking at a lengthy (and possibly out of the way) bus ride to the BD line."
The Sheppard line already serves eastern North York, although a station at Vic Park would make bus connections easier. People in north Scarborough who live west of the Kennedy bus do not travel south to the B/D line, they take buses over to the Yonge line. Depending on where they live, catching a bus south to the Sheppard line and transferring twice to get onto Yonge may not save any time. No one sits on the Warden bus for an hour when they can take Steeles or Cummer or Finch and be at Finch station in 20 minutes.
"... because they are not extending the subway to York U to act as a relief line from the Yonge Line."
No, they're not...but it's a nice side effect. Nothing's mutually exclusive in a transportation network. I'm not an expert on travel patterns in the west end of the city, but I'd think it would also relieve the Bloor line slightly since more people from Rexdale would take a bus over and the subway down instead of a bus down and the subway over.
"If you are going to critque someones opinion, makesure you understand first the discussion thread. It had nothing to do with actual ridership issues of the SRT."
It had nothing to do with ridership figures, but it did have to do with capacity. You said "The capacity of both modes/techonolgy is vastly different. Comparing ridership on a subway line vs the SRT is like comparing the SRT to a bus route." New RT cars would more than triple SRT capacity. Some bus routes in this city have pretty much the same ridership as the RT, anyway.
"Last time I studied both routes, and thought you were way off, but noone else said anything so I assumed you must be right."
Last time I was probably talking about people in Scarborough travelling downtown via the Sheppard line with its current terminus at Don Mills - this adds at least 30 minutes. Or I maye have been talking about a scenario with both Sheppard and B/D extended to STC. Dig up an old thread if you're so inclined.
"But its up to you. Wouldn't you rather extend the sheppard line first so you have an alternative route when the eventually close to replace the SRT?"
That's not why I'd like to see the Sheppard line extended. GO improvements and a barebones express bus network can do the same thing faster, better, and cheaper.
"First, not everyone who takes the SRT and then the BD is trying to get downtown."
Most are, and the only alternate route that I can see that would work for those that are not is an Eglinton East line.
"Furthermore, the line would stimulate ridership in northern Scarborough and eastern North York, where it's quite hard to get around with the TTC, from personal experience, as you're usually looking at a lengthy (and possibly out of the way) bus ride to the BD line."
The Sheppard line already serves eastern North York, although a station at Vic Park would make bus connections easier. People in north Scarborough who live west of the Kennedy bus do not travel south to the B/D line, they take buses over to the Yonge line. Depending on where they live, catching a bus south to the Sheppard line and transferring twice to get onto Yonge may not save any time. No one sits on the Warden bus for an hour when they can take Steeles or Cummer or Finch and be at Finch station in 20 minutes.
"... because they are not extending the subway to York U to act as a relief line from the Yonge Line."
No, they're not...but it's a nice side effect. Nothing's mutually exclusive in a transportation network. I'm not an expert on travel patterns in the west end of the city, but I'd think it would also relieve the Bloor line slightly since more people from Rexdale would take a bus over and the subway down instead of a bus down and the subway over.
"If you are going to critque someones opinion, makesure you understand first the discussion thread. It had nothing to do with actual ridership issues of the SRT."
It had nothing to do with ridership figures, but it did have to do with capacity. You said "The capacity of both modes/techonolgy is vastly different. Comparing ridership on a subway line vs the SRT is like comparing the SRT to a bus route." New RT cars would more than triple SRT capacity. Some bus routes in this city have pretty much the same ridership as the RT, anyway.
"Last time I studied both routes, and thought you were way off, but noone else said anything so I assumed you must be right."
Last time I was probably talking about people in Scarborough travelling downtown via the Sheppard line with its current terminus at Don Mills - this adds at least 30 minutes. Or I maye have been talking about a scenario with both Sheppard and B/D extended to STC. Dig up an old thread if you're so inclined.
"But its up to you. Wouldn't you rather extend the sheppard line first so you have an alternative route when the eventually close to replace the SRT?"
That's not why I'd like to see the Sheppard line extended. GO improvements and a barebones express bus network can do the same thing faster, better, and cheaper.
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roch5220
Guest
"It had nothing to do with ridership figures, but it did have to do with capacity. You said "The capacity of both modes/techonolgy is vastly different. Comparing ridership on a subway line vs the SRT is like comparing the SRT to a bus route." New RT cars would more than triple SRT capacity. Some bus routes in this city have pretty much the same ridership as the RT, anyway."
That was the example I used to show how vastly different the modes of transport were, hence the actual ridership numbers were no base for comparison. Just cause ridership on Sheppard = the SRT, and the SRT is successfull, doesn't mean that Sheppard is successfull. Its like comparing ridership on a bus route to the SRT, vastly different. IF the SRT ridership is 50K and a bus route only 5K, doesn't mean the bus route isn't successfull. Again, you were not following the line of discussion, or not understanding it.
Actual original post by Mike:
"I don't know why people think the Sheppard line is doing poor. The Sheppard line is the same length as the SRT, and has similar ridership of 45,000 a day"
Mikes post was directly about comparing ridership.
"Last time I was probably talking about people in Scarborough travelling downtown via the Sheppard line with its current terminus at Don Mills "
No we were not. This was us a few months ago talking about the same thing. But the time issue is not really discussable anymore since we don't really agree - which can't be proved yet either way. But one things for certian, the Sheppard line has to be finished as well.
I don't know if you agree but I think it should follow one of the original propsals that also expands the line westward as a midtown line connecting the yonge and spadina lines. I think this could help the spadina line as people travelling north in the city/north of the city coming from VCC or York U could take it instead of a finch bus to get over to the Finch station/connecting bus routes. It all depends though on if this would create any time savings.
That was the example I used to show how vastly different the modes of transport were, hence the actual ridership numbers were no base for comparison. Just cause ridership on Sheppard = the SRT, and the SRT is successfull, doesn't mean that Sheppard is successfull. Its like comparing ridership on a bus route to the SRT, vastly different. IF the SRT ridership is 50K and a bus route only 5K, doesn't mean the bus route isn't successfull. Again, you were not following the line of discussion, or not understanding it.
Actual original post by Mike:
"I don't know why people think the Sheppard line is doing poor. The Sheppard line is the same length as the SRT, and has similar ridership of 45,000 a day"
Mikes post was directly about comparing ridership.
"Last time I was probably talking about people in Scarborough travelling downtown via the Sheppard line with its current terminus at Don Mills "
No we were not. This was us a few months ago talking about the same thing. But the time issue is not really discussable anymore since we don't really agree - which can't be proved yet either way. But one things for certian, the Sheppard line has to be finished as well.
I don't know if you agree but I think it should follow one of the original propsals that also expands the line westward as a midtown line connecting the yonge and spadina lines. I think this could help the spadina line as people travelling north in the city/north of the city coming from VCC or York U could take it instead of a finch bus to get over to the Finch station/connecting bus routes. It all depends though on if this would create any time savings.
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Brighter Hell
Guest
no it didn't, it might have needed some sort of mass transit, but a subway was excessive. a light rail line would have been completed from downsview to STC by now and could have been the start of a bigger light rail network across north york/scarborough.I don't think the idea of a Sheppard subway was misguided since the city needed an east-west subway for the northern part of the city.
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rbtaylor
Guest
I tend to disagree here. If it was LRT of the same format as the SRT or what they intend to install along St. Clair we would probably be looking to upgrade it pretty soon.it might have needed some sort of mass transit, but a subway was excessive.
Keep in mind the $500M LRT option for the SRT can only carry about double the current Sheppard subway ridership number. Sheppard subway can, of course, carry about 4 to 6 times the current number.
I've made the assumption most people are destined for Yonge -- thus the total capacity of the line is the capacity at Sheppard/Yonge station. Double the length of the route with LRT and you have hit maximum capacity the LRT line offered pretty much on opening day.
A single LRT line with feeder buses isn't going to do it.
The question is would it have been better to have $3B of LRT along Lawrence East, York Mills, Sheppard, Finch, and Steeles OR $3B of subway on Sheppard with local bus routes feeding it. Much of the $3B comes from building underground LRT transfer points, which would be necessary with 2 car trains arriving every 2 to 3 minutes with up to 200 people unloading and maybe 100 loading.