How big a debacle is the Sheppard line?

[Oliver Tweed]

This thing has become the poster boy for all that's wrong with Toronto transit: Inadequate piecemeal expansion, low ridership (the latter likely a result of the former), plagued by NIMBYism and generally an embarassment.

Is it as bad as all that? Does it get a bad rap? Is it salvageable? What will turn it from joke to jewel, if anything? What are the chances of any of this happening in the next decade?

When I show my friends from Tokyo a map of Toronto's subway system, I cover the Sheppard line with my thumb so they can't see it. Sometimes it slips and they say, "what's that little stick over there shooting off the Yonge line on the map?" I just pretend I don't hear.

 

[Oliver Tweed]

Just kidding!!! have a sense of humour, people!

Seriously though, I would like to hear people's predictions on what will be done to this line and when.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

As if this thread helps...

The only thing wrong with the Sheppard line is that it wasn't built out to STC and Downsview right from the start.

 

[roch5220]

Can you imagine being a driver on this line. Back, and forward, back and forward. For all 5 stations.

 

[GregWTravels]

My prediction is nothing for a long while. Given that capacity issues on the Yonge line is driving northern expansion on the University-Spadina line to try and drive more traffic to use it as a north south route, I can't imagine that the TTC would expand the Sheppard line to put more traffic onto Yonge.

Perhaps after a Don Mills RT is built (that would double - hopefully - as some manner of downtown relief line), the TTC would think about expanding further east - then the Yonge line capacity wouldn't be an issue anymore (as riders from the east on BD should be drawn off before Yonge-Bloor) and you would have the extra southbound capacity of the Don Mills RT.

 

[Oliver Tweed]

"As if this thread helps..."



As if any of them do.......

 

[roch5220]

Given that capacity issues on the Yonge line is driving northern expansion on the University-Spadina line to try and drive more traffic to use it as a north south route,

Theres no such capacity issue. If there was one, you'd see a resurgence of the DRL. The VCC extension is mutually exclusive, and will not signficantly divert riders away from the yonge line.

 

[building babel]

I look forward to seeing the art in the Bayview station whenever I go to my dentist. Other than that, the line has about as much use to me as the Spadina line north of Yorkdale does.

 

[andreapalladio]

I have yet to feel the need to take the subway to Ikea, so I have not yet ridden the Sheppard line.

 

[GregWTravels]

Theres no such capacity issue. If there was one, you'd see a resurgence of the DRL. The VCC extension is mutually exclusive, and will not signficantly divert riders away from the yonge line.

It's not at capacity now, but there was concern in the 2001 Rapid Transit Expansion Study done by the TTC that pushing the Yonge line north would drive the capacity above it's capacity:

While the Yonge Subway options rank higher than most options, a northerly extension of the Yonge Subway line has the potential to overload the Yonge line. From an operational perspective, it would be more prudent to better balance ridership on the Yonge and Spadina Subway lines by first extending the Spadina Subway north of the current Yonge Subway terminus at Finch Avenue. By extending the Spadina Subway first, approximately 2,000-2,500 AM peak period (6-9 a.m.) riders on the Yonge Subway can be off loaded to the Spadina Subway line thereby providing significant relief to the Yonge line in the medium term.

From www.toronto.ca/ttc/pdf/rtes2002.pdf

The RTES recognized that the Yonge Street options ranked well, in comparison with the recommended projects. However, there was the concern that extending the Yonge Line may result in its passenger capacity being exceeded. The Yonge Line’s practical capacity south of Bloor Street is 32,000 passengers per hour. Current maximum ridership is now at 27,000 passengers per hour. To balance the ridership between the two lines, it would be necessary to extend the Spadina Line north of Finch Avenue before extending the Yonge Line. This has the potential to divert up to 2500 riders to the Spadina Line, thereby allowing for a future extension of
the Yonge Subway.

From www.toronto.ca/legdocs/20...t004a2.pdf

 

[roch5220]

Ahem, the RTES is an old report.

You are forgetting that the alignment that was being proposed during this time was the Yonge - University line loop @ steeles. Hence there was an uptown connection at steeles to divert riders. Now the YUL is dead and there is no connection. No connection = no diverted riders.

 

[samsonyuen]

I for one am glad it's built. My parents live at Steeles and Kennedy, and it's made my journey to the subway a lot easier whenever I'm there. Seriously, I don't think it's a disgrace to see it on a map. The rest of the map isn't that extensive either compared to Tokyo. The greatness of the TTC isn't its subway, it's the interconnectivity of the entire system and modes.

 

[GregWTravels]

The RTES didn't propose the YUL. That was proposed with the 1994 report. The RTES quoted above was a 2002 report that concluded that the extension of the Spadina line north was the best next step, and kicked off the expansion project to take the subway to York.

The diverted riders are people from the North of Toronto who would drive or bus to the Sheppard line instead of the Yonge line if the Sheppard line was extended further North than the Yonge line.

 

[roch5220]

Yes, I didn't say that it proposed it. But back in 2002, as outlined in the report, it was still being touted, but subsequently after, was killed off.

You will see that in the RTES report, it suggests both the YUL as well as a midtown connection continuing the sheppard line. Back at this time, the northern subway lines hit a watershed moment. Either extend northward, or loop the lines and not extend any further (which I was in favor of - the latter option).

Plus, diverting 10K rides a day isn't significant, especially when what, 700K people use the subway each day.

 

[Suicidal Gingerbread Man]

Reading Roch's statements are giving me a headache.

Roch:

the alignment that was being proposed during this time was the Yonge - University line loop

Roch:

I didn't say that it proposed it