Highway 401 Transit and Auto Tunnel

[Adjei]

Not a fan of this proposal, but there are many many many urban road tunnels of extended length - these “problems” have been solved. Sydney has just finished building 33 km of new urban motorways at about AU$20 billion, for example (WestConnex)

The only way this would even work was if it was tolled.

But instead of doing this why don’t they propose to work with the Feds to do a phase 2 of the HFR or high speed rail line with stops at Pearson, Kitchener, London, and Windsor.

 

[christiesplits]

I would rather they spend the money to buy back the 407 and make advancements on the 407, not whatever the heck this is.

Ford won't touch the 407 with a five foot pole.

Keep in mind this is a government that refused to seek $1 Billion in penalties from the 407 during COVID.

Documents reveal Ford government opted not to pursue $1-billion penalty from 407 Express Toll Route

The Star has learned the 407 ETR was facing penalties “in the order of $1 billion” in 2020 due to pandemic-triggered lockdowns, but the province told the toll road owner it didn’t have to pay.

www.thestar.com

 

[Northern Light]

While ambitious, it would not be without global precedent. Sydney is currently wrapping up a 33km tunnelled expressway network.

* Minor correction........ the highway network is 33km; the tunnelled portion is 26km.

A cursory review by me suggests the Sydney route has fewer challenges (major valley crossings) as well.

The interactive map of the project can be found here:

Interactive Map | WestConnex

www.westconnex.com.au

 

[crs1026]

I am gobsmacked, partly at Ford but also at the idea that the electorate is so self centered as to swallow this. Apart from the economics being ridiculous, the idea that what people want most is more roadway to keep driving their cars as they always have done, is a real statement about the mentality of the electorate.
The question that follows is - where is the feeder road network to support this highway? Where will that many cars end up?
It’s a scheme that will be very popular, for doofuses.

- Paul

 

[innsertnamehere]

Ford won't touch the 407 with a five foot pole.

Keep in mind this is a government that refused to seek $1 Billion in penalties from the 407 during COVID.

Documents reveal Ford government opted not to pursue $1-billion penalty from 407 Express Toll Route

The Star has learned the 407 ETR was facing penalties “in the order of $1 billion” in 2020 due to pandemic-triggered lockdowns, but the province told the toll road owner it didn’t have to pay.

www.thestar.com

pursuing those penalties would have been a waste of time. The provincial government implemented legislation forcing people to not travel and in return the 407 failed to meet traffic targets. The province can't fine them for something of their own doing.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I am gobsmacked, partly at Ford but also at the idea that the electorate is so self centered as to swallow this. Apart from the economics being ridiculous, the idea that what people want most is more roadway to keep driving their cars as they always have done, is a real statement about the mentality of the electorate.
The question that follows is - where is the feeder road network to support this highway? Where will that many cars end up?
It’s a scheme that will be very popular, for doofuses.

- Paul

the 401 is a cross regional expressway which services traffic across the province. It's not funneling people into downtown.

 

[junctionist]

It's a weird situation. I'm thrilled about the ambition behind the idea, but I'm devastated as to Ford's 1950s-era mentality of focusing only on making driving as easy as possible in addressing our transportation needs.

You know what the electorate has been saying for decades? They want fast and convenient transit. But hey, let's spend all of their tax dollars on building infrastructure to get more people driving. That will surely solve our serious traffic problems. Maybe if we just stop the bike lanes from being built??

You know we got some hecklers complaining about Doug Ford's ambition. But I kind of like just the rapid transit tunnelling idea. Having subway trains etc straddles underneath the 401 and possibly the 427 and DVP. Connecting them to other rapid transit lines like Bloor or Yonge lines etc. Would create an excellent subway grid system around the the city keeping some driver's off the road. And it wouldn't interfere with business and homes being built under the highways. Just basically the areas where they would have to connect with the existing subway station etc for now!

The problem is that there are usually no major trip generators immediately adjacent to our urban freeways (aside from the Gardiner). There's a Leons furniture store at the foot of Highway 400. There are single-detached homes and industrial parks along much of the 401. There's a ravine wall next to the DVP. These aren't good places for rapid transit.

 

[Northern Light]

the 401 is a cross regional expressway which services traffic across the province. It's not funneling people into downtown.

Where does Paul mention downtown?

There is no surplus capacity on Victoria Park Avenue or Warden Avenue or Kennedy etc etc. in the vicinity of the 401. Cars still have to reach the highway and then egress at their destination.

The capacity for same is non-existent, with very little ability to achieve it. (you either have to densify the grid, or widen a huge number of roads for a considerable distance.)

 

[Cambry Ardship]

I think the idea, if you're being charitable, is that the tunnel would be a sort of express+ lanes without direct exits into the city, like a bypass route. So people who need to drive across the city would be able to take it, freeing up capacity for people who are using the 401 to drive to destinations within the city.

 

[Edward Skira]

Image the additional mess on the 401 during the 10 years it would take to actually build this.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Where does Paul mention downtown?

There is no surplus capacity on Victoria Park Avenue or Warden Avenue or Kennedy etc etc. in the vicinity of the 401. Cars still have to reach the highway and then egress at their destination.

The capacity for same is non-existent, with very little ability to achieve it. (you either have to densify the grid, or widen a huge number of roads for a considerable distance.)

I would be very surprised if this tunnel has an exit to Victoria Park Avenue

My point is that many trips on the 401 don't start or end in Toronto. It's a wildly complex demand pattern on the highway with a strong percentage of use on the highway being trips involving areas outside of the city, and even stronger percentages being commercial traffic which is extremely challenging to convert to transit and which has very high economic value.

I absolutely get the initial reactions to this 'idea', but do think it's worth looking at a bit more in detail instead of knee-jerk reactions. cross-GTA travel is going to become extremely challenging in the coming years as there is no significant planned increases in capacity across the region in current transportation plans, transit or otherwise.

 

[sixrings]

Well this makes Fords plan of subways to Pickering and my plan for subways to Mississauga seem super sensible.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

* Minor correction........ the highway network is 33km; the tunnelled portion is 26km.

A cursory review by me suggests the Sydney route has fewer challenges (major valley crossings) as well.

The interactive map of the project can be found here:

Interactive Map | WestConnex

www.westconnex.com.au

Not to mention the added challenge of keeping a reasonable amount of traffic flow on North America's busiest highway while under construction.

Lets assume this is a deep-bore tunnel to address the crossing concerns you highlighted previously. Start adding a few interchanges/exits to make the project actually useful, then you are dealing with large-scale lane closures, temporary bridges over excavation sites or/and large-scale land expropriation to build new temporary lanes in order to keep some semblance of traffic flow, on and on. Oh boy.

Boston's Big Dig starts to look like a walk in the park.

Even if this is purely an express tunnel with just a western portal at Hwy 410 and a eastern portal at Hwy 404, you still need to mine numerous exit shafts and ventilation on a very deep tunnel which will still require expropriation, lane closures, and 2 massive new interchanges. An express tunnel becomes useless for transit purposes so then the project becomes less beneficial.

 

[Northern Light]

I would be very surprised if this tunnel has an exit to Victoria Park Avenue

It isn't where the tunnel exits, its where the traffic in the tunnel exits..............

My point is that many trips on the 401 don't start or end in Toronto. It's a wildly complex demand pattern on the highway with a strong percentage of use on the highway being trips involving areas outside of the city, and even stronger percentages being commercial traffic which is extremely challenging to convert to transit and which has very high economic value.

Right, but you're completely evading the question that Paul posed. Where is the additional traffic going to exit to that has spare road capacity to accommodate it.?

I absolutely get the initial reactions to this 'idea', but do think it's worth looking at a bit more in detail instead of knee-jerk reactions. cross-GTA travel is going to become extremely challenging in the coming years as there is no significant planned increases in capacity across the region in current transportation plans, transit or otherwise.

I don't think there's anything knee-jerk about the reactions.

This isn't a pro/anti highway question, there's one there now.

Its a question of feasibility and best use of finite dollars.

 

[afransen]

I wouldn't waste much energy on this. The idea is absurd and the costs will reflect that. It's not going to happen. I could see maybe decking the 401. That would be expensive and disruptive enough, but not nearly so much as tunnelling.