High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

[steveintoronto]

And the elephant in the room:
Where is Collenette?

Ontario government wants high-speed rail proposal by October, MP says
CBC News Posted: Feb 09, 2016 3:50 PM ET Last Updated: Feb 09, 2016 4:19 PM ET

The Ontario government wants to see a proposal completed for a Toronto-to-Windsor high-speed rail project by October, according to a London-area MP.

The governing Liberals have been consulting with various stakeholders along the Toronto-to-Windsor corridor this month, as they map out what the proposed rail project could look like.

Tory MP Karen Vecchio was present at the stakeholders meeting held in London on Tuesday, which centered on the province's intent to bring high-speed rail service to the Toronto-to-Windsor corridor. (parl.gc.ca)

She came away from the meeting convinced that the provincial government is serious about making high-speed rail a reality. And it appears they plan to close in on a proposal in the months ahead.

"From what I understand, they want to have this studied and they want to have a proposal given to the government … by October of 2016," she told CBC Radio's Afternoon Drive in an interview on Tuesday
[...]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/winds...ed-rail-proposal-by-october-mp-says-1.3440700

Vecchio can't be held to her word, she's not a Liberal, let alone an insider, but it's approaching a year now, and not a word. Vecchio, a PC, is from K/W though, which ties in Alex' point:

The PC's have made it clear that increased service to Kitchener is a priority for them. Also, their Transport Critic Mike Harris (the 2nd worst Mike Harris to work at Queen's Park) is from Kitchener. But I can see the PCs throwing a wrench in most transit plans, which would really suck.

I honestly don't think outside this sub the average person knows about RER. And while my family in London had heard about the proposed HSR, it was such a distant idea to them so as to be irrelevant.

I think the Tories are far more likely to can it all and expand the highways and make GO service hourly on all lines. That's apparently what they planned for under Hudak.

I see that and raise the stakes: I think the Libs, no matter their promises, will deliver about the same if re-elected. Beyond Bramalea, I just don't see the case, especially with funds so incredibly tight, for RER to K/W.

We're going to be lucky to see any form of frequent service even between Union and Bramalea, and I have serious doubts even that will be electrified.

When the cupboard is so bare, it's pretty hard to imagine anything more than stale sandwiches for dinner. And frankly, if all available funding shared with the Feds and Investment Funds (Bank or otherwise) went into the Missing Link, the famine would be justified. At least there would be a much more rational case for investing in upgrading the lines left passenger-only. But even that is looking remote...

I'll agree with Keithz on regular service to K/W though, albeit every two hours to K/W outside of peak, but express south of Bramalea with a frequent (albeit probably diesel) bare-bones RER between Bramalea and Union, perhaps continuing east from Union....A train every two hours, but running a lot faster than it now does would satisfy present demand, and even help create more. At least half and hour has to be knocked off the present time, it can be done with the present stock.

Dreams are being sold like...well...fantasies. What irks me is that massive amounts of funding are going into palaces of opulence that take forever to build, while surplus traction and coach stock could be running an econo frequent operation Bramalea and south, costing a relative pittance to institute.

Do we deserve better? Absolutely, when the funding becomes available, but we need service now. Who cares if the equipment is used?

 

[kEiThZ]

It'll be interesting to see the politics of this. Let's not forget that this started in no small part as a way to placate a somewhat more economically depressed southwestern Ontario (London in particular) with a plan to tie them into the GTA and the tech sector's incessant demand for a connection to Pearson, which is a major pressing issue when you compare the competition in the Bay Area and Boston both having easy access to transport infrastructure.

 

[muller877]

It'll be interesting to see the politics of this. Let's not forget that this started in no small part as a way to placate a somewhat more economically depressed southwestern Ontario (London in particular) with a plan to tie them into the GTA and the tech sector's incessant demand for a connection to Pearson, which is a major pressing issue when you compare the competition in the Bay Area and Boston both having easy access to transport infrastructure.

London is in a political mess right now. They do need help but first they have to clean up their mayoral mess. So many scandals. An adulterer who slept with the Deputy Mayor (Matt Brown). Before that someone who stole from the federal government and whose son ran a charity tax scam/scheme (Fontana). Before that someone who's husband opened up a cheque cashing ring outside of a welfare office (DeCicco-Best). Before that refusing to allow a gay pride parade (Haskett).

With all of this happening the city which was once bustling has lost their major manufacturing and commercial employers without any large wins.

It's so sad since I remember London in its heyday before Canada Trust was bought. It still has so much potential but no leadership. KW has rightfully taken over the crown of the 3rd most important region in Ontario (after Toronto and Ottawa).

HSR will not be the smoking gun to get London out of the doldrums. But a good vote buyer for the Fiberal Party (or at least the constant announcements). If they show the exact same map in the next election will anyone still believe them? I have not heard of any movement on the new ROW that they are proposing (at least surveying it and securing it against future encroachments).

 

[lead82]

This will never happen. They should just push for federal funding for VIA's high frequency rail plan.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

The project that London most wants to be funded isn't high speed rail, it is their SHIFT BRT plan. Traffic within London is terrible (can't understate how bad it is during rush hour). I'd expect to see SHIFT funded in 2017, and an eventual phase 2 VIA High Frequency Rail over CN's tracks from Kitchener - Stratford - London (which VIA has publicly stated they want to buy). I think high speed rail will high speed disappear from government plans due to London's priorities and better uses of capital.

 

[ssiguy2]

London's traffic is truly dreadful. There are relatively few roads that actually cross the city and none that go downtown do. London also has no urban freeways although that has left the city with a constant urban form with no freeways ripping apart neighbourhoods or gaps in the urbanity.

London has missed a beat but I totally disagree that KWC has overtaken it in importance. London is still, and always will be, the centre of SWO, is a major university and government town, entertainment and shopping centre, and the confluence of many freeways and rail lines. KWC is literally 5 different cities that grew into each other with huge gaps between the urban cores...........it's just a bigger rendition of St.Catherines/Niagara. KW certainly has the high-tech and universities but it's relevance will decline as is Hamilton's. KW & Hamilton are doing well but are increasingly looking more like Toronto commuter towns whereas London will always be an important regional centre.

 

[steveintoronto]

I think high speed rail will high speed disappear from government plans due to London's priorities and better uses of capital.

I've searched incessantly for anything new on-line re High Speed Ontario, let alone with Collenette's name, and there is nada, zilch, zero.

If anything, he's been asked to hide and avoid questions. I was going to post earlier what Lead did, but pulled my punches:

This will never happen.

The Province can't even afford a fraction of what they're already promised, let alone new ones.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I honestly don't think outside this sub the average person knows about RER. And while my family in London had heard about the proposed HSR, it was such a distant idea to them so as to be irrelevant.

I think the Tories are far more likely to can it all and expand the highways and make GO service hourly on all lines. That's apparently what they planned for under Hudak.

I can agree with this, but I think some lines will get more. But hourly service on all lines is fine as lone as Richmond Hill and Milton are included.

And the elephant in the room:
Where is Collenette?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/winds...ed-rail-proposal-by-october-mp-says-1.3440700

Vecchio can't be held to her word, she's not a Liberal, let alone an insider, but it's approaching a year now, and not a word. Vecchio, a PC, is from K/W though, which ties in Alex' point:




I see that and raise the stakes: I think the Libs, no matter their promises, will deliver about the same if re-elected. Beyond Bramalea, I just don't see the case, especially with funds so incredibly tight, for RER to K/W.

We're going to be lucky to see any form of frequent service even between Union and Bramalea, and I have serious doubts even that will be electrified.

When the cupboard is so bare, it's pretty hard to imagine anything more than stale sandwiches for dinner. And frankly, if all available funding shared with the Feds and Investment Funds (Bank or otherwise) went into the Missing Link, the famine would be justified. At least there would be a much more rational case for investing in upgrading the lines left passenger-only. But even that is looking remote...

I'll agree with Keithz on regular service to K/W though, albeit every two hours to K/W outside of peak, but express south of Bramalea with a frequent (albeit probably diesel) bare-bones RER between Bramalea and Union, perhaps continuing east from Union....A train every two hours, but running a lot faster than it now does would satisfy present demand, and even help create more. At least half and hour has to be knocked off the present time, it can be done with the present stock.

Dreams are being sold like...well...fantasies. What irks me is that massive amounts of funding are going into palaces of opulence that take forever to build, while surplus traction and coach stock could be running an econo frequent operation Bramalea and south, costing a relative pittance to institute.

Do we deserve better? Absolutely, when the funding becomes available, but we need service now. Who cares if the equipment is used?

IMO, I would skip Georgetown and Acton. Go Kitchener -> Guelph -> Mt Pleasant etc to Union. Halton Hills won't even set up transit. Why even stop there off peak? That will shave 15 min off the trip and help the headways.

It'll be interesting to see the politics of this. Let's not forget that this started in no small part as a way to placate a somewhat more economically depressed southwestern Ontario (London in particular) with a plan to tie them into the GTA and the tech sector's incessant demand for a connection to Pearson, which is a major pressing issue when you compare the competition in the Bay Area and Boston both having easy access to transport infrastructure.

Agreed.

London is in a political mess right now. They do need help but first they have to clean up their mayoral mess. So many scandals. An adulterer who slept with the Deputy Mayor (Matt Brown). Before that someone who stole from the federal government and whose son ran a charity tax scam/scheme (Fontana). Before that someone who's husband opened up a cheque cashing ring outside of a welfare office (DeCicco-Best). Before that refusing to allow a gay pride parade (Haskett).

With all of this happening the city which was once bustling has lost their major manufacturing and commercial employers without any large wins.

It's so sad since I remember London in its heyday before Canada Trust was bought. It still has so much potential but no leadership. KW has rightfully taken over the crown of the 3rd most important region in Ontario (after Toronto and Ottawa).

HSR will not be the smoking gun to get London out of the doldrums. But a good vote buyer for the Fiberal Party (or at least the constant announcements). If they show the exact same map in the next election will anyone still believe them? I have not heard of any movement on the new ROW that they are proposing (at least surveying it and securing it against future encroachments).

London's traffic is truly dreadful. There are relatively few roads that actually cross the city and none that go downtown do. London also has no urban freeways although that has left the city with a constant urban form with no freeways ripping apart neighbourhoods or gaps in the urbanity.

London has missed a beat but I totally disagree that KWC has overtaken it in importance. London is still, and always will be, the centre of SWO, is a major university and government town, entertainment and shopping centre, and the confluence of many freeways and rail lines. KWC is literally 5 different cities that grew into each other with huge gaps between the urban cores...........it's just a bigger rendition of St.Catherines/Niagara. KW certainly has the high-tech and universities but it's relevance will decline as is Hamilton's. KW & Hamilton are doing well but are increasingly looking more like Toronto commuter towns whereas London will always be an important regional centre.

I think the problem with London was that KW got RIM and they got...the hospital. I mean 3M Canada wasn't the same impact. All that is separating Kitchener from London really is RIM shutting down. Plus London has had a bit of a crime and corruption issue as pointed out above, that has scared people away. Hamilton is making a slow comeback, lets see if London can too.

 

[steveintoronto]

IMO, I would skip Georgetown and Acton. Go Kitchener -> Guelph -> Mt Pleasant etc to Union. Halton Hills won't even set up transit. Why even stop there off peak? That will shave 15 min off the trip and help the headways.

Then you'd defeat the purpose of the run! Georgetown, at least from my experience a year ago on the morning trains boarding at Guelph, is that a lot more get on (and off in the evening) at Georgetown than they do at Guelph, even with more runs in from Georgetown. (They store a handful there to start and finish) But it's not a case of if/or for all the stations west of Bramalea, it's a case of increased track speed, elimination of 'Go Slow' sections and clear pathing so as to reduce time, not eliminate crucial station stops. This isn't VIA, but VIA would also benefit greatly from improvements on the alignment. From Bramalea south, a form of RER (even before it's electrified, short-consist diesel hauled) could service the in-between stops on a frequent basis, thus allowing the distance GO run to go express. Station stops with a short 3-coach consist will be much faster than at present with full trains to accelerate/decelerate. Even Acton has a purpose, and if serviced bi-hourly, let alone hourly, it will promote densification of the area (prices are still affordable there compared to Georgetown or Guelph). All those stations west of Bramalea must be serviced, including the two new ones proposed. Shorter trains run off-peak might be the answer, along with eliminating the bottle necks.

Hamilton is making a slow comeback, lets see if London can too.

Hamilton is already the third (perhaps now second since Van has the brakes on) hottest real estate market in Canada. Hamilton being a de-facto Toronto satellite is much more pronounced than either K/W or London will ever be.

 

[kEiThZ]

The project that London most wants to be funded isn't high speed rail, it is their SHIFT BRT plan

In my experience with family who lives there, transit largely seems to be viewed as something for students. Traffic maybe terrible. But London is still small enough that driving around, even during rush is still relatively manageable. Your commute will still be shorter than the average GTA driving commute.

For most of them, anecdotal as it is, the people I've come across would love a faster way to get to Toronto. They want to be tied into the GTA. Their politicians seem to share that view.

I actually think there's a greater likelihood of SHIFT being canned than some kind of rail line to London.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

In my experience with family who lives there, transit largely seems to be viewed as something for students. Traffic maybe terrible. But London is still small enough that driving around, even during rush is still relatively manageable. Your commute will still be shorter than the average GTA driving commute.

For most of them, anecdotal as it is, the people I've come across would love a faster way to get to Toronto. They want to be tied into the GTA. Their politicians seem to share that view.

I actually think there's a greater likelihood of SHIFT being canned than some kind of rail line to London.

You're not wrong that despite the traffic, driving is more convenient than transit. London is subdivided in a way which you really aren't too far from a mall or something at any time, making the wait for a bus something not worth doing if you have access to a car.

From what I've heard from people in London (everyone's experiences are bound to be different), it isn't really the time the current rail options take to get to Toronto, it is the lack of options. On a typical weekday, there are 7 London to Toronto VIA trips, with the VIA train taking the same amount of time as a car (roughly 2h9m without traffic factored in) if they travel the London - Brantford - Toronto route. There are large gaps in the train schedule, making timing inconvenient. The people I've talked to in London seem to want more options, versus a faster trip - something VIA's high frequency rail would offer.

In terms of SHIFT, it seems to have political support in London from elected reps at all levels, and importantly no vocal opposition. The high speed rail proposal, as much as I'd like it to exist, seems far off an unlikely in my mind due to its current seemingly MIA status.

 

[kEiThZ]

I say that HFR or HrSR of whatever it is may well survive because the political payoff is massive compared to SHIFT. That line impacts a lot more ridings than SHIFT in London.

But again, there's the other risk. You need electrification on at least one GO line to make this work. We don't know if the PCs are interested in that at all.

I think the PCs are going to focus on transit from an extremely narrow focus of electoral payoff for $$$, with ideology a close second.

So that means hourly GO service, the Scarborough Subway, the Hamilton LRT and second phase of Ottawa's LRT. That's probably about it. If they will invest further, I could see the HSR coming into play. So many seats to be captured along the line. And donations from the tech community.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Then you'd defeat the purpose of the run! Georgetown, at least from my experience a year ago on the morning trains boarding at Guelph, is that a lot more get on (and off in the evening) at Georgetown than they do at Guelph, even with more runs in from Georgetown. (They store a handful there to start and finish) But it's not a case of if/or for all the stations west of Bramalea, it's a case of increased track speed, elimination of 'Go Slow' sections and clear pathing so as to reduce time, not eliminate crucial station stops. This isn't VIA, but VIA would also benefit greatly from improvements on the alignment. From Bramalea south, a form of RER (even before it's electrified, short-consist diesel hauled) could service the in-between stops on a frequent basis, thus allowing the distance GO run to go express. Station stops with a short 3-coach consist will be much faster than at present with full trains to accelerate/decelerate. Even Acton has a purpose, and if serviced bi-hourly, let alone hourly, it will promote densification of the area (prices are still affordable there compared to Georgetown or Guelph). All those stations west of Bramalea must be serviced, including the two new ones proposed. Shorter trains run off-peak might be the answer, along with eliminating the bottle necks.

But Georgetown refuses to build local transit. What you see is rush hour. Off peak, Georgetown will be abysmal without the feeder system. Milton deserves all day service far more. Currently Kitchener -> Toronto is 93 min, that goes down to 57 or 58 min by skipping Georgetown and Acton off peak. They can keep their rush hour service.

Hamilton is already the third (perhaps now second since Van has the brakes on) hottest real estate market in Canada. Hamilton being a de-facto Toronto satellite is much more pronounced than either K/W or London will ever be.

Well Hamilton is part of the GTHA, so I would think so. I'm just saying London doesn't have the corporate support Waterloo Region has, which is why its a mess.

 

[steveintoronto]

Off peak, Georgetown will be abysmal without the feeder system.

Perhaps so, but many of the locals will drive and park, I see a fair amount of empty space in the parking lot during work days there. Do you think Guelph is any better? They don't even have GO co-fare outside of peak times, and yet Guelph is served by three all day GO bus routes.

• A PRESTO card between 5:45 a.m. until 7:30 a.m. and between 6:15 p.m. and 7:45 p.m. on buses scheduled to arrive at or depart Guelph Central GO Station during regular weekday service. Transfers will not be issued if passengers are required to take more than one Guelph Transit bus to reach Guelph Central Station; these passengers will be required to pay the co-fare at each boarding.

Get more info online http://bit.ly/19x1Fpw

And to top it off, formerly 20 min headway buses are now only every half an hour. And even that's been cut. They've just lost two good Transit Managers in a row. And Guelph considers herself to be a leader in transit, anything green, and more sophisticated than the entire rest of world.

For your added viewing pleasure, I post the entirety of the page link above:

Guelph Transit and GO Transit co-fare program

Passengers will qualify for the $0.60 co-fare when boarding a Guelph Transit bus and presenting one of the following:

• A validsingle-ride GO Transit ticketwhen connectingfroma GO Train or GO Bus at Guelph Central Station on any service day. Transfers will be issued for the Guelph Transit system upon request.
• A validGO Transit day-passwhen connectingto or froma GO Train or GO Bus at Guelph Central Station on any service day. Transfers will be issued for the Guelph Transit system upon request.
• New times starting September 6 – APRESTO card from the start of service until 7:30 a.m. and between 5:40 p.m. and 9:15 p.m. on buses scheduled to arrive at or depart Guelph Central GO Station during regular weekday service. Transfers will not be issued if passengers are required to take more than one Guelph Transit bus to reach Guelph Central Station; these passengers will be required to pay the co-fare at each boarding.

Are there other fare options?
Guelph Transit riders who connect with GO Transit using a PRESTO card, but travel outside of the program hours, are encouraged to purchase amonthly Guelph Transit pass or daily tickets.

Our commitment
Guelph Transit is committed to multi-modal transportation, and will continue to encourage passengers who ride GO Transit to use Guelph Transit to take them to and from Guelph Central Station.

 

[crs1026]

London- Toronto suffers from 'last mile' syndrome at both end of the route. At the London end, the VIA depot is just far enough from public transit to be a bit inconvenient. At the Toronto end, there are transit options but the added time and effort to use it makes a car trip much faster, especially with 403, 401, and 407 providing paths to just about the entire GTA. Both of these pieces need to fall into place to make the VIA piece attractive. London-Malton with GO connections down the 407 would address this for many.

One lever to change the picture (where is Mr Collenette when we need him?) is to quantify what it will cost to add more capacity to Highway 401 west of Highway 6. That route is congealing. If quantified into a single cost item, rather than small incremental packages, some level of investment in rail might prove viable.

I wonder whether London woukd rethink its transit planning if it could be confirmed that CP is considering rerouting its trains in the City. An east-west transit line on the CP right of way would make it possible to cross London smoothly.

- Paul