High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

[EnviroTO]

Just curious: among all the much needed infrastructure in southern Ontario, why does the government think a HSR between London and Toronto is important? To serve what purpose? I doubt there is such a great need for Torontonians to visit London frequently - what does London have in terms of jobs, attractions etc? What I can think of is, people can live in as far as London/Kitchener and work in Toronto as a result of this? Is London slated to be the next big city or something?

There are 8 scheduled buses, 7 scheduled trains, and a number of private buses running London to Toronto daily. To get KW to Toronto upgraded they will end up purchasing the line and I would imagine there is no buyer for the Stratford to London section so without the province buying that too the VIA train, already cut down to 2 runs daily on the North route, would likely end up cancelled. Once the money has been spent to own the railway Silver to London and needing to provide the welded rail, additional track, and improvements to the line, especially with the plan being electrification to KW, the cost of doing it right all the way to London becomes a more manageable cost compared to the amount already spent. The same incremental economics do not exist between Toronto and Ottawa for the province. There is no right-of-way up for sale, there is no plan to upgrade an electrify to some midpoint to Ottawa where a bit more expense finishes the route, etc. However, the big benefit of HSR to London is that it would completely change the political support for HSR in Canada. None of the large cities in Ontario, Quebec, and Alberta would sit back and allow London, K-W, and Toronto to have that kind of focus.

 

[Markster]

There are 8 scheduled buses, 7 scheduled trains, and a number of private buses running London to Toronto daily.

In terms of existing service on the corridor, looking at what Greyhound, VIA, and GO offer:

London -> KW 2 buses per day
KW -> Toronto 22 buses per day
London -> Toronto 14 buses per day
London -> Toronto 7 Trains per day (3(?) via KW)
KW -> Toronto 2 Trains per day

 

[TOareaFan]

In terms of existing service on the corridor, looking at what Greyhound, VIA, and GO offer:

London -> KW 2 buses per day
KW -> Toronto 22 buses per day
London -> Toronto 14 buses per day
London -> Toronto 7 Trains per day (3(?) via KW)
KW -> Toronto 2 Trains per day

watching the debate on PVR (6:30 start...really?)....Wynne went on record of extending this to Windsor.....can we change the title.

 

[reaperexpress]

watching the debate on PVR (6:30 start...really?)....Wynne went on record of extending this to Windsor.....can we change the title.

Well that's good. There isn't much point in putting up the extra cost and reduced service (lower frequency, higher fares and fewer communities served) of HSR compared to regional rail when we're only stretching as far west as London (175km).

 

[dunkalunk]

Well that's good. There isn't much point in putting up the extra cost and reduced service (lower frequency, higher fares and fewer communities served) of HSR compared to regional rail when we're only stretching as far west as London (175km).

I can see them electrifying the service to Windsor, but as far as upgrading the line to 300km/h standards, I don't see that happening. Would Windsor even have enough eastbound passenger traffic to warrant it? Most of it seems to be transport trucks. Perhaps they'll look at a service running around 200km/h using the existing lines...

 

[ehlow]

watching the debate on PVR (6:30 start...really?)....Wynne went on record of extending this to Windsor.....can we change the title.

I interpreted that as "we may eventually extend it there", Windsor being mentioned in order to help politically, not as an real promise of including it in the first phase.

 

[innsertnamehere]

^ that's the way they worded it in their platform as well.

 

[vz64]

I am a bit curious why wouldn't they consider an HSR connection to Niagara Falls? With 22.5 mln visitors annualy it beats such place as Euro Disney (outside of Paris, 19.5 mln visitors in 2013) where you can take a high-speed train to CDG and number of other destinations...

 

[TOareaFan]

I am a bit curious why wouldn't they consider an HSR connection to Niagara Falls? With 22.5 mln visitors annualy it beats such place as Euro Disney (outside of Paris, 19.5 mln visitors in 2013) where you can take a high-speed train to CDG and number of other destinations...

Aside from the fact that there is no logical path/route for this HSR to NF and aside from the fact that, overall, the Paris transit network is far more devloped overall.....there is the matter of distance....isn't EuroDysney less than 50km frm CDG? Pearson to Niagara is over twice that.

 

[salsa]

I found this article from 2011, and to me it further shows that the Liberals are just making shit up as they go along.

High-speed train to Windsor won’t pay, says new study

High-speed rail on the Quebec City-to-Windsor corridor could raise between $1.2 billion and $1.3 billion a year once it’s fully operational. But the Windsor end of the line probably isn’t feasible, according to the latest findings in a long series of studies.

Only the Quebec City-to-Toronto corridor would be viable “from the point of view of the Canadian economy as a whole,” says the report.

The report also suggests there would be no need to connect downtown Toronto to the airport because of the Union Station-to-Pearson shuttle that Metrolinx is building and is set to open in 2015.

 

[vz64]

Aside from the fact that there is no logical path/route for this HSR to NF and aside from the fact that, overall, the Paris transit network is far more devloped overall.....there is the matter of distance....isn't EuroDysney less than 50km frm CDG? Pearson to Niagara is over twice that.

I see the logistic challanges, but there are existing CN tracks (if I recall, there was a VIA service a few years ago...). Network--they (in France) had no HSR trains not that long time ago... In terms distance--logically, the shorter the ditance the less sence it makes to build HSR, isn't it?

 

[diminutive]

I am a bit curious why wouldn't they consider an HSR connection to Niagara Falls? With 22.5 mln visitors annualy it beats such place as Euro Disney (outside of Paris, 19.5 mln visitors in 2013) where you can take a high-speed train to CDG and number of other destinations...

1.) Niagra Falls isn't an "innovation cluster" like KW. What kind of right thinking government would possibly bother serving that?

2.) The Liberals are very weak in Hamilton and the Niagara Peninsula. What's the point of a political pet project that doesn't serve your ridings? As far as I can see, the only riding the Liberals are likely to carry in the region is St. Catherines, hardly worth a whole HSR line!

 

[innsertnamehere]

The Libs are planning service to niagara using improved and sped up regular GO service.

Windsor probably doesn't make sense right now but the promise they are making seems to be more along the lines of "phase 1 to London, maybe phase 2 to Windsor in a decade"

Windsor would be a cheap extension anyway as the ROW is already extremely straight.

Business trips return much more to the GDP than tourist trips, and that is why they get more serious attention. Not every trip is equal. (Same reason regional trips are treated more importantly than local trips, they generate more GDP than a local trip)

 

[gweed123]

I am a bit curious why wouldn't they consider an HSR connection to Niagara Falls? With 22.5 mln visitors annualy it beats such place as Euro Disney (outside of Paris, 19.5 mln visitors in 2013) where you can take a high-speed train to CDG and number of other destinations...

I would think that that line would be considered as part of a US HSR line from Buffalo to NYC, or something like that. If that was the case, then building HSR from Union to Niagara Falls via the Lakeshore corridor would make sense.

 

[mpd618]

I would think that that line would be considered as part of a US HSR line from Buffalo to NYC, or something like that. If that was the case, then building HSR from Union to Niagara Falls via the Lakeshore corridor would make sense.

Conversely, if there isn't any real chance of getting a cross-border connection, then HSR to Niagara Falls doesn't make that much sense. Similarly for Windsor and Montreal.