High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

[dunkalunk]

I'd just as rather keep the rail corridor where it is with a station somewhere around Woodbine/Highway 27. The UPX spur could then be converted to an electrified shuttle connecting the HSR station with Terminal 1 and Renforth Gateway.

 

[Hipster Duck]

The UPX spur could then be converted to an electrified shuttle connecting the HSR station with Terminal 1 and Renforth Gateway.

Why force a transfer for the overwhelming majority of people who are coming in from downtown?

 

[innsertnamehere]

the UPX won't be made defunct, the HSR won't run much above hourly frequencies and more is needed for trips between downtown and the aiport.


Regardless, this is all speculation until we see what will actually be happening.

 

[TOareaFan]

One thing's for sure: if the HSR stops at an "airport transfer" station, it sure as hell shouldn't be stopping at Brampton.

Well, since the first days of talking about this HSR...Pearson was included in it...whether that means in the airport (as Murray seems to indicate) or a transfer station that would seem to be that you would be in the "no way in hell it should stop at Brampton"....which is fine and in line with what the Minister is currently thinking.

What that does, however, is cut off the HSR (in either direction) from accessing the potential of those customers in Brampton and any from Mississauga that might use the HMLRT to connect to it. Seems strange to build two large, expensive, pieces of transit infrastructure that go to/through the same location but have no way of interfacing or feeding each other with passengers. Many people tried (in the other thread) to convince me that the real reason the HMLRT had to go to Brampton GO was to create a network of interconnected transit lines.....I guess it does not matter so much now.

 

[nfitz]

they could probably, in the future, add a connection to the airport spur from the west and run airport Express trains from London/Kitchener.

Why would you do that? You've got a perfect alignment right now, but you'll compromise it with lots of extra curves, and very expensive tunnels for a few passengers changing planes?

Not going to happen.

 

[dunkalunk]

the UPX won't be made defunct, the HSR won't run much above hourly frequencies and more is needed for trips between downtown and the aiport.

I should clarify, UPX service would be electrified regardless and continue to Union. The service would be express from Highway 27 all the way to Union, allowing it to operate on the HSR tracks and be a true express service. Frequent local GO service would operate through to Brampton. What I'm proposing would be to extend the track to Renforth to connect with the Eglinton LRT and Missisauga Transitway.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

What's your suggestion for the new route? It's a tricky area, particularly on the East side.

Just extend the Crosstown to Pearson and then leave the rail for Brampton and HSR.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Well, since the first days of talking about this HSR...Pearson was included in it...whether that means in the airport (as Murray seems to indicate) or a transfer station that would seem to be that you would be in the "no way in hell it should stop at Brampton"....which is fine and in line with what the Minister is currently thinking.

What that does, however, is cut off the HSR (in either direction) from accessing the potential of those customers in Brampton and any from Mississauga that might use the HMLRT to connect to it. Seems strange to build two large, expensive, pieces of transit infrastructure that go to/through the same location but have no way of interfacing or feeding each other with passengers. Many people tried (in the other thread) to convince me that the real reason the HMLRT had to go to Brampton GO was to create a network of interconnected transit lines.....I guess it does not matter so much now.

As you know, not having an HSR station in Brampton is not the same as not having a serious regional rail station in Brampton. There, of course, I think it's essential for Brampton to have decent service. However, I don't think that an HSR should be forced to stop at Pearson and then, again, 5 minutes later in Brampton. That would defeat the purpose of HSR. Given that the majority of HSR riders are looking to access the airport rather than Brampton, Brampton, unfortunately, doesn't make the cut.

I think that the airport station would actually be the de facto HSR station for Peel region. Bramptonians would be, at most, a 3 stop ride on frequent regional rail service away from this station, and Bramptonians who live east of the 410 would probably just drive to this airport station, anyway. The Mississauga Transitway would hopefully connect to this station, and would therefore serve Mississaugans just as easily as Brampton station would. At the end of the day, this is the 905 we are talking about, and most people will probably just arrive here by car. It's a lot easier to build a giant park and ride at this location than it is in downtown Brampton.

Regardless, this is all speculation until we see what will actually be happening.

This line is usually trotted out to end a discussion, but it's not very effective. If it weren't for us speculating, this would be a pretty dull forum.

 

[TOareaFan]

As you know, not having an HSR station in Brampton is not the same as not having a serious regional rail station in Brampton. There, of course, I think it's essential for Brampton to have decent service. However, I don't think that an HSR should be forced to stop at Pearson and then, again, 5 minutes later in Brampton. That would defeat the purpose of HSR. Given that the majority of HSR riders are looking to access the airport rather than Brampton, Brampton, unfortunately, doesn't make the cut.

I think that the airport station would actually be the de facto HSR station for Peel region. Bramptonians would be, at most, a 3 stop ride on frequent regional rail service away from this station, and Bramptonians who live east of the 410 would probably just drive to this airport station, anyway. The Mississauga Transitway would hopefully connect to this station, and would therefore serve Mississaugans just as easily as Brampton station would. At the end of the day, this is the 905 we are talking about, and most people will probably just arrive here by car. It's a lot easier to build a giant park and ride at this location than it is in downtown Brampton.

I get it and respect the view (although the defeatism ineherent in the bolded part makes you wonder why the massive transit expansion )

I was/am just questioning the all in purpose of HSR for people in London and KW.....Is it, as I have read from some, to connect them to Union...if so, why stop at Pearson? Is it, as some have said, to connect them to Pearson...if so, why not end it there and have those going to Union transfer to UPX?

In the end, I think, it is to connect them to the entire GTHA and Mississauga is already an important part of that and its importance from an employment and population sense is growing. So is Brampton but, I acknowledge, less so. Getting Londoners and KWers into Mississauga (whether by HSR or RER) should be part of the plan and getting Mississaugians, and Bramptonians, out to KW and London should also be part of this plan. Bypassing the new LRT line that does that just makes little sense to me...and, as others have said, the difference between the slow down speed and the quick stop speed in DT Brampton will not be that significant.

It is probably no surprise to anyone here that I am a long time Bramptonian and, often, advocate/discuss from that perspective....but I can assure you that if the London/KW HSR was somehow coming in on the Milton corridor and not stopping at Cooksville GO I would be equally strong in my advocacy for a stop there.

This line is usually trotted out to end a discussion, but it's not very effective. If it weren't for us speculating, this would be a pretty dull forum.

Agree....if discussions weren't held until plans were finalized....there would be very little point.

 

[Hipster Duck]

I get it and respect the view (although the defeatism ineherent in the bolded part makes you wonder why the massive transit expansion )

Ha ha. Well, I guess I'm trying to be a bit of a realist here. One thing we should remind ourselves right off the bat, is that people who ride HSR are not the same as people who ride transit, especially people who would ride HSR in the suburbs. Even in France, the major suburban HSR stations, like Marne-la-Vallee, have enormous parking lots to cater to professional suburbanites who travel everywhere by car.

I was/am just questioning the all in purpose of HSR for people in London and KW.....Is it, as I have read from some, to connect them to Union...if so, why stop at Pearson? Is it, as some have said, to connect them to Pearson...if so, why not end it there and have those going to Union transfer to UPX?

In the end, I think, it is to connect them to the entire GTHA and Mississauga is already an important part of that and its importance from an employment and population sense is growing. So is Brampton but, I acknowledge, less so. Getting Londoners and KWers into Mississauga (whether by HSR or RER) should be part of the plan and getting Mississaugians, and Bramptonians, out to KW and London should also be part of this plan. Bypassing the new LRT line that does that just makes little sense to me...and, as others have said, the difference between the slow down speed and the quick stop speed in DT Brampton will not be that significant.

I think that difference is significant. Basically, the HSR train has to travel at low speeds for a 10 km stretch, dwell at an additional station for a minute, or so, and then regain speed afterwards.

As for the LRT, I'm supportive of it, but I'm very agnostic about its ability to serve as a real regional transit corridor. Frankly, sitting in an LRT in the median of the road is just not going to be time competitive with cars over longer, 905 journeys. Its purpose is to provide a significant enhancement to the capacity and service of the current bus routes along Hurontario, and maybe to foster some urban growth, here and there. The economics of it probably don't wash, but it's important to have some higher level transit between the two cities and there aren't any rail corridors lying around to provide a cheaper, more regionally-focused alternative.

Another point I forgot to mention is that a Brampton HSR station will only really serve western Brampton and surrounding communites. An airport HSR station, apart from serving the airport, will serve Bramalea, Vaughan, Northwest Toronto and Eastern Mississauga. I think that a rapidway station at the Pearson-HSR station means that people in western Mississauga will be a one seat ride from the HSR station, and that people at MCC will have, arguably, a quicker one seat ride to the HSR than if the station were in Brampton.

It is probably no surprise to anyone here that I am a long time Bramptonian and, often, advocate/discuss from that perspective....but I can assure you that if the London/KW HSR was somehow coming in on the Milton corridor and not stopping at Cooksville GO I would be equally strong in my advocacy for a stop there.

But that scenario would never play out. For starters, the Georgetown line passes close to the airport, and we have already essentially built an HSR-ready corridor as far as Highway 427. Secondly, the Milton line is much more curvy and doesn't travel close to any major trip generators. Even if you were to stop at Cooksville, it would still necessitate a transfer to the LRT to get to MCC.

Agree....if discussions weren't held until plans were finalized....there would be very little point.

This is why I spend the overwhelming majority of my time on the Transportation forum rather than the Projects and Construction, even though the momentum in transit construction is frustrating while the momentum in real estate construction is orgiastic. Here we can draw up fantasy maps and dream visionary projects. There, it's like "hey, I wonder what that condo tower will look li...oh, they released renderings. Well, I wonder how the cladding is going to loo..oh, they've already begun installing them."

 

[TOareaFan]

Ha ha. Well, I guess I'm trying to be a bit of a realist here. One thing we should remind ourselves right off the bat, is that people who ride HSR are not the same as people who ride transit, especially people who would ride HSR in the suburbs. Even in France, the major suburban HSR stations, like Marne-la-Vallee, have enormous parking lots to cater to professional suburbanites who travel everywhere by car.



As for the LRT, I'm supportive of it, but I'm very agnostic about its ability to serve as a real regional transit corridor.

But once Londoners/KWers have left their car at the HSR stop in their towns they would not have access to them anymore and if their destination was to somewhere in Mississauga the LRT would be their only viable link. As you may know, I have been generally opposed to the northern half of the LRT (I just think it is an overbuild for the corridor/demand) but if it played a key part in regional/inter-regional network that provided people with a flexible ability to move around (and not just straight line A-B) then I start to think more positively about it.

Frankly, sitting in an LRT in the median of the road is just not going to be time competitive with cars over longer, 905 journeys.

If, however, it is now being used by people who left their cars 100s of km away it becomes a more compelling piece of the pie.

Its purpose is to provide a significant enhancement to the capacity and service of the current bus routes along Hurontario, and maybe to foster some urban growth, here and there. The economics of it probably don't wash, but it's important to have some higher level transit between the two cities and there aren't any rail corridors lying around to provide a cheaper, more regionally-focused alternative.

The economics don't wash currently, and, at least the northern part, does not need that boost to capacity....but an HSR connection could give the thing an outside boost....it could be the steroid injection the LRT needs.

Another point I forgot to mention is that a Brampton HSR station will only really serve western Brampton and surrounding communites. An airport HSR station, apart from serving the airport, will serve Bramalea, Vaughan, Northwest Toronto and Eastern Mississauga. I think that a rapidway station at the Pearson-HSR station means that people in western Mississauga will be a one seat ride from the HSR station, and that people at MCC will have, arguably, a quicker one seat ride to the HSR than if the station were in Brampton.

fair point but western Brampton and NW Mississauga is still a fairly large group of folks.

But that scenario would never play out. For starters, the Georgetown line passes close to the airport, and we have already essentially built an HSR-ready corridor as far as Highway 427. Secondly, the Milton line is much more curvy and doesn't travel close to any major trip generators. Even if you were to stop at Cooksville, it would still necessitate a transfer to the LRT to get to MCC.

I know....was just pointing out this was not me being totally Brampton centric......I honestly think the HSR bypassing Peel is a mistake in terms of generating its full ridership potential (in either direction).

I suspect what will happen is the reverse of what is likely to happen with the Weston station on the UPX. Weston has been added but at some time after it opens they will note that no one actually boards or leaves the UPX at Weston and that stopping there is a waste...and the stop will be removed.

I suspect that after a while of operating, hourly HSR serving only London, KW, Pearson and Union will not generate sufficient ridership to warrant that level of service and somone will point out that if they could sacrifice a small bit of speed and put in a stop at Brampton to serve Peel via the LRT it may get the numbers up and that will be tried before they look at cutting back on the frequencies....maybe we should just wait and see what happens

 

[TOareaFan]

On the subject of connectivity:

Retweeted by CivicAction
Move the GTHA ‏@MovetheGTHA 9m
Question from audience highlights how the disconnected modes of transit, causing long commutes and added stress for residents. 1/2

Retweeted by CivicAction
Move the GTHA ‏@MovetheGTHA 8m
Wynne emphasizes the goal of the Big Move, to connect the municipalities and more seamless connections 2/2

 

[TFC]

I suspect that after a while of operating, hourly HSR serving only London, KW, Pearson and Union will not generate sufficient ridership to warrant that level of service and somone will point out that if they could sacrifice a small bit of speed and put in a stop at Brampton to serve Peel via the LRT it may get the numbers up and that will be tried before they look at cutting back on the frequencies....maybe we should just wait and see what happens

I have a hard time believing that a tanking HSR line connecting London-KW-Pearson-Union would be saved by adding a station in Brampton.

 

[TOareaFan]

I have a hard time believing that a tanking HSR line connecting London-KW-Pearson-Union would be saved by adding a station in Brampton.

mmmm......you have taken my comment and made it say something I did not say.

1....I said not generating enough ridership to warrant hourly service....you think that means "tanking"
2....then I said in an effort to attract riders from Peel (from the surrounding area or by linking to LRT) they would add a stop in Brampton.....you think that means a Brampton stop would save it.

 

[MisterF]

I was/am just questioning the all in purpose of HSR for people in London and KW.....Is it, as I have read from some, to connect them to Union...if so, why stop at Pearson? Is it, as some have said, to connect them to Pearson...if so, why not end it there and have those going to Union transfer to UPX?

Because HSR does both of those things, it's not one or the other. I'll assume you're not being serious about adding a forced transfer at Pearson or skipping it altogether because both would be ridiculous. HSR lines serve many needs - intercity service, regional service (slower regional trains often use the same tracks as high speed trains), replacing flights, and serving downtowns and airports.

In the end, I think, it is to connect them to the entire GTHA and Mississauga is already an important part of that and its importance from an employment and population sense is growing. So is Brampton but, I acknowledge, less so. Getting Londoners and KWers into Mississauga (whether by HSR or RER) should be part of the plan and getting Mississaugians, and Bramptonians, out to KW and London should also be part of this plan. Bypassing the new LRT line that does that just makes little sense to me...and, as others have said, the difference between the slow down speed and the quick stop speed in DT Brampton will not be that significant.

An HSR network including frequent, slower regional trains would do all of those things. The airport station would serve as the station for the entire west GTA and passengers would take the regional trains to get there. A Brampton station would be around 12 km from the airport station - that kind of station spacing is very rare on HSR lines if it exists at all. On the other hand, there are many mass transit lines that cross HSR lines without a station, including subways, LRT and regional rail. Given the proximity of Pearson, a Brampton station would be redundant.