High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

[ssiguy2]

Accelerating the decline of London. I think Kitchener-Waterloo will be fine with 2WAD (probably will be diesel at this point.) London is the place that will take the big hit here.

The decline of London??? London is the 5th fastest growing Metro in the country and growing faster than Toronto or Ontario. Unemployment is at 5.3%. The downtown's population is soaring due to huge new condo/apt towers and a rejuvenated core which is quickly returning to it's former glory. Nearly every city in the country would kill to be enjoying a "decline" like London is currently experiencing.

 

[jje1000]

The decline of London??? London is the 5th fastest growing Metro in the country and growing faster than Toronto or Ontario. Unemployment is at 5.3%. The downtown's population is soaring due to huge new condo/apt towers and a rejuvenated core which is quickly returning to it's former glory. Nearly every city in the country would kill to be enjoying a "decline" like London is currently experiencing.

Maybe not decline, but HSR would have strengthened the city's ties with the GTA. That would mean stronger linkages with Toronto's economy, culture, finance, and international travel systems.

That being said, there likely would be some other secondary outcomes, and I think that depending on the cost of travel, London could have also been roped into becoming a commuter community as well, with its benefits and downsides.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Honestly, a VIA HFR type of solution for Toronto-Kitchener-London would be good enough, and far less expensive. Even getting travel times down to 2 hrs for London and 1 hr for Kitchener with consistent hourly service would be huge for the region.

I am not sure this government is sincere about actually building something here though.

I'm not sure that's entirely possible (especially during peak hours) without either heavily expanding the rail corridor between Bramalea & Georgetown and significantly improving track speed standards to beyond class 7 standards on both Kitchener-Georgetown and Bramalea-Union. Even with the existing express GO train, it only travels at a maximum speed of 100 km/h, and it takes half an hour to get from Union Station to Bramalea, without station stops. At this point, you're just building High Speed Rail.

 

[ssiguy2]

A 2 hour one-way VIA trip from London to Union won't make any difference to Londoners. The Greyhound only takes 2 hours and is cheaper and probably more reliable. London certainly doesn't need true HSR but certainly faster. This is why HR via Kitchener was a stupid idea from the beginning. as it adds about 15km to the trip with a number of stops.

The best option has always been to build the damn Brantford by-pass and run higher speed diesel {or now hydrogen} trains that can travel up to 160 km/hr and have it non-stop with possibly a stop at Aldershot to connect with GO/RER. This would make the trip less than 90 minutes and be more dependable. For people coming in from London/Windsor it is both the fastest and, by far, cheapest route.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

People are being alarmist. Nothing is going to happen to London. It has been trending up.

Meanwhile, Kitchener-Waterloo is going to continue exploding with growth as the LRT comes into operation, and the region becomes seamlessly connected to Toronto through GO AD2W service.

Kitchener-Waterloo would be better off if the province built two-three more GO stations spanning the width of the city, than they would be with high-speed rail. It would be hell of a lot cheaper too.

 

[kEiThZ]

Greyhound only takes 2 hours and is cheaper and probably more reliable.

I looked on Greyhound's schedule. Fastest bus is 2 hr 19 min midday. During rush, the "Express" is 2 hrs 40 mins. It's 2 hrs 35 mins if you leave at 4am. Travel times closer to 2.5-3 hrs are the norm on the schedule. And those times are only going to get worse are traffic worsens in Southern Ontario in the coming years.

Also, the schedule is not hourly. Departures are every 1.5-2 hrs apart. And the last one leaves London at 830pm.

I think HFR with real travel times < 2 hrs and hourly departures from 6am to 10pm would be a massive improvement over Greyhound. And all this is before we get into the discussion of quality. Rail offers a better ride, can be more productive, and done right, could be cheaper than Greyhound.

People are being alarmist. Nothing is going to happen to London. It has been trending up.

I wouldn't say the population growth is reflective of their economic situation. They are deindustrializing and becoming a Toronto bedroom community in the worst way possible.

and the region becomes seamlessly connected to Toronto through GO AD2W service.

Kitchener-Waterloo would be better off if the province built two-three more GO stations spanning the width of the city,

Speed matters though. If it takes 2 hrs get from Kitchener to Toronto, the amount of traffic back and forth will have strong restrictions on growth.

 

[robmausser]

Kitchener-Waterloo would be better off if the province built two-three more GO stations spanning the width of the city, than they would be with high-speed rail. It would be hell of a lot cheaper too.

Well Breslau is basically that

https://www.metrolinxengage.com/en/content/breslau

Another station could be built on the west side too, in Highland West.

But a Cambridge GO station would be even more beneficial to the region.

 

[ssiguy2]

It is true that as Toronto traffic becomes ever more congested, it takes away the speed and dependability of the bus but that doesn't mean the trains will run any quicker. HSR via KW was a stupid idea and was clearly planned with Torontonians in mind as opposed to Londoners and Windsorites. The Pearson connection means a lot to people in Kitchener but precious little to Londoners and to Windsor it means absolutely nothing at all. The Brantford by-pass and some key grade separations and twinnings with non-stop Union-London service could easily get train times down to 90 minutes for less at a fraction of the cost and with far less blowback from rural communities along the way.

 

[kEiThZ]

HSR via KW was a stupid idea and was clearly planned with Torontonians in mind as opposed to Londoners and Windsorites.

I'd say it was planned with KWC in mind. Nobody in Toronto really gives a damn about service to London.

The Pearson connection means a lot to people in Kitchener but precious little to Londoners and to Windsor it means absolutely nothing at all.

It also meant a lot to Pearson airport who wants to reduce feeder flights from London and Windsor (with HSR). Those slots are quite valuable and more useful to the airlines running larger airplanes to more business oriented destinations. Given 1.5 hr hourly departure HFR service from London to Pearson, I would expect all Air Canada and Westjet to drop their Pearson flights.

The Brantford by-pass and some key grade separations and twinnings with non-stop Union-London service could easily get train times down to 90 minutes for less at a fraction of the cost and with far less blowback from rural communities along the way.

Without KWC's higher yielding business ridership, there's no business case for a regular rail service to London. You still don't get it. London is a distant second to KWC when it comes to what's important to the province economically. You can hitch your wagon to their riding star or not get anything at all.

Brantford really doesn't add enough to be comparable.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Well Breslau is basically that

https://www.metrolinxengage.com/en/content/breslau

Another station could be built on the west side too, in Highland West.

But a Cambridge GO station would be even more beneficial to the region.

I think Breslau GO is too far east to benefit Kitchener more directly and service development opportunity. If you are interested in continuing this discussion, there is 2-pages worth of back-and-forth on the idea in the Transit Fantasy Maps thread to bump.

Speed matters though. If it takes 2 hrs get from Kitchener to Toronto, the amount of traffic back and forth will have strong restrictions on growth.

Part of the idea would be to implement fare-by-distance and have intra-Kitchener trips, as opposed to strictly Kitchener-->Toronto trips.

Kitchener should be treated and planned as a standalone centre, not just a bedroom community for Toronto.

 

[Streety McCarface]

People are being alarmist. Nothing is going to happen to London. It has been trending up.

Meanwhile, Kitchener-Waterloo is going to continue exploding with growth as the LRT comes into operation, and the region becomes seamlessly connected to Toronto through GO AD2W service.

Kitchener-Waterloo would be better off if the province built two-three more GO stations spanning the width of the city, than they would be with high-speed rail. It would be hell of a lot cheaper too.

I've always advocated for a Boardwalk stop, there's already a bus terminal, lots of development, shopping, and parking there. The land is prime for a station, and maybe even a storage yard. Breslau will serve the east of the city, but it will appeal to drivers (which is good, because it will keep people away from downtown, and ultimately, there are still too many areas of this city that are not at all served well by transit).

I think Breslau GO is too far east to benefit Kitchener more directly and service development opportunity. If you are interested in continuing this discussion, there is 2-pages worth of back-and-forth on the idea in the Transit Fantasy Maps thread to bump.


Part of the idea would be to implement fare-by-distance and have intra-Kitchener trips, as opposed to strictly Kitchener-->Toronto trips.

Kitchener should be treated and planned as a standalone centre, not just a bedroom community for Toronto.

The entire area out there should, and I wish greyhound didn't have their hands clenched on the KW-Guelph route, or Megabus and the KW Hamilton route. GO really should be serving both of those destinations, as well as intercity service around KW. Having a truly express bus from conestoga mall to Cambridge centre, Ainslie, or even Abefoyle would be incredibly useful, especially for students and would give GRT a reason to expand service in the north & east of Waterloo.

Remember, the triangle of Guelph, KW, and Hamilton is home to 4 universities, and 2 community colleges. There are a lot of people here that need to get around the region, and all day local GO service between Kitchener and Guelph would be an amazing start. All day GO Bus service to Hamilton & Aldershot would also be amazing.

 

[ssiguy2]

Keith.....………..you are right, no Torontonian gives a damn about service to London/Windsor which is the problem as Toronto still feels it's her decision to make. People in Lon/Wind want to get to Union fast and the fastest, most direct, and cheapest route is the southern one via Aldershot. It is Torontonians who want the connection to KW not the people of SWO.

It's like people thinking GO should be expanded to London but they clearly didn't ask Londoners. Toronto politicians and citizens just assume that London would feel honoured to become another Hogtown suburb but Londoners feel quite the opposite. London is growing quickly because people are leaving Toronto not the other way around. Building the Brantford by-pass alone would save at least 30 minutes and running express another 30. KW is NOT part of the primary VIA Corridor Route for good reason...……...it's too slow, indirect, and has no connections to other major routes. The idea of HSR to SWO was never planned by VIA or Ottawa but rather on the back of used toilet paper for cheap political points by Wynne.

 

[Streety McCarface]

KW is NOT part of the primary VIA Corridor Route for good reason...……...it's too slow, indirect, and has no connections to other major routes. The idea of HSR to SWO was never planned by VIA or Ottawa but rather on the back of used toilet paper for cheap political points by Wynne.

That's not entirely true...at all. The Kitchener route connects to many other rail lines that, sure, don't connect to downtown Toronto or the southern Ontario railway, but do connect with CP, the CN Markham sub, the GE railway, and reconnect with the CN line back in London.
Basic track rehabilitation would easily remove the slowness of the corridor, but even then, that's not a huge investment. High speed rail as a concept isn't even supposed to connect with other railroads, it's supposed to be its own dedicated line, that's the point of high speed rail. Going VIA Kitchener also opens up the opportunity for faster Chicago service (on a polar map, it is the most direct routing).
In terms of it's indirectness, that is not at all the case. The two routes only differ by about 10 kilometers, and even then, that small of a distance can easily be made up by shortcutting the section between St. Mary's and London.

Some things to consider with the Hamilton routing:
1. it's still running searchlights (I really want to grab one and restore it before they're all gone), so the entire signaling system west of Hamilton needs to be redone, and it's more significant, so it'll be fairly expensive.
2. it passes through the niagara escarpment. This makes any sort of additional construction, maintenance, and expansion extremely difficult and geologically challenging. Electrifying part of this route could be a huge challenge.
3. It runs though a much busier corridor. This is not good if you want to run a frequent service, especially if you're trying to serve lesser served areas of southern Ontario like London, KW, Stratford, Guelph, or even Brampton. The existing corridor has to deal with mainline CN traffic spur traffic from the Southern Ontario Railroad & other CN traffic from New York, 30 minute all day 2 way go service, numerous large yards, and other existing challenges.
4. Sure it's faster, but it's arguably a lot more difficult to upgrade speeds on the line further. The Kitchener line is far less used, so upgrades and expansions can easily be done.

Just because VIA uses the Hamilton routing now doesn't mean it's the best routing for a new service that's being built with new infrastructure.

 

[crs1026]

Some things to consider with the Hamilton routing:
2. it passes through the niagara escarpment. This makes any sort of additional construction, maintenance, and expansion extremely difficult and geologically challenging. Electrifying part of this route could be a huge challenge.
3. It runs though a much busier corridor. This is not good if you want to run a frequent service, especially if you're trying to serve lesser served areas of southern Ontario like London, KW, Stratford, Guelph, or even Brampton. The existing corridor has to deal with mainline CN traffic spur traffic from the Southern Ontario Railroad & other CN traffic from New York, 30 minute all day 2 way go service, numerous large yards, and other existing challenges.
4. Sure it's faster, but it's arguably a lot more difficult to upgrade speeds on the line further. The Kitchener line is far less used, so upgrades and expansions can easily be done.

Just because VIA uses the Hamilton routing now doesn't mean it's the best routing for a new service that's being built with new infrastructure.

Exactly. The northern route has poorer service because it is in terrible shape, and has been for years. (BTW, CN's track inspection car ran over the Guelph Sub this past week, and there is now a new long list of defects to fix. ) However, it's a relatively simple and inexpensive matter to remedy that. Capacity can be added fairly easily, by restoring sidings and upgrading the signalling. If you take the existing through business between Windsor/Sarnia and Toronto, and add business potential for the Kitchener Waterloo area, you have a ridership potential that's quite sufficient to justify good rail service.

The Brantford route has the escarpment, and that represents a significant challenge for CN freight operations. There would have to be additional track built to add any substantial passenger capacity. CN could not in conscience allow VIA to intrude more signficantly here - there is freight to be moved and shareholders to satisfy. A third track for VIA would be incredibly expensive to build. I suspect there would be environmental issues to address also.

I disagree that only Torontonians care about rail service west of the city. I know few people in Southern Ontario who *want* to drive to Toronto. They choose that option today because it's the most flexible and convenient. That says something about how basic (I almost typed 'primitive') rail service is west of Toronto. Having said that, just try to find a parking spot in the Woodstock VIA station lot. It's full, thanks mostly to people making day trips to Toronto. We don't need HSR, but a good fast service on the northern line would be competitive with the current service via Brantford.

- Paul

 

[narduch]

I'd say it was planned with KWC in mind. Nobody in Toronto really gives a damn about service to London.



It also meant a lot to Pearson airport who wants to reduce feeder flights from London and Windsor (with HSR). Those slots are quite valuable and more useful to the airlines running larger airplanes to more business oriented destinations. Given 1.5 hr hourly departure HFR service from London to Pearson, I would expect all Air Canada and Westjet to drop their Pearson flights.



Without KWC's higher yielding business ridership, there's no business case for a regular rail service to London. You still don't get it. London is a distant second to KWC when it comes to what's important to the province economically. You can hitch your wagon to their riding star or not get anything at all.

Brantford really doesn't add enough to be comparable.

I agree with your general point. But the area at terminal 1 where AC runs flights to Windsor or London can only handle small planes anyways (gates D1 to D10). They aren't going to replace flights with higher capacity planes.