High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

[lrt's friend]

In my mind it's a little more complicated than simply Guelph/London etc get HSR and Brampton gets LRT/BRT money. HSR would need the freight bypass to be constructed in my view. That could benefit Brampton because two additional Brampton GO Stations could receive more service. However the risk is that HSR could cannibalize the track capacity for Brampton and more GO service. That's what I think the author of this blog post meant by "it would be a shame if the HSR plans pushed aside regional and local needs."

I just don't think it's realistic that the new Ford gov will want to touch the HSR issue given the price tag.

HSR may not be the answer.

What we need is to continue to upgrade the rail corridor. As we are able to move trains faster and more frequently, ridership will increase. This is not just about Toronto-London but also key points in between including faster access to Pearson by train from points west. Furthermore, this will eventually lead to expansion to Chatham and Windsor and down the road, Detroit and Chicago.

We need to show some long-term vision here. The time will come when not everybody will want to drive on congested highways and is it a good investment to continue to dump so much money into expanding highways?

VIA has already demonstrated on its Toronto-Ottawa run that if trains are time competitive, that ridership can grow. The Toronto-Ottawa line presently has up to 10 trains per day in each direction and ridership has been growing rapidly.

 

[Allandale25]

^ Welcome to UT.

 

[crs1026]

I just fail to connect the dots as to why connecting it to Toronto with HSR is so essential for promoting growth there. The distance is too great for people to commute back and forth daily, and the first/last mile problem results in loss of competitiveness of rail compared to the car. All it would facilitate are one-off trips such as Western University students coming home for the weekend, and the occasional day-trip. I don't think those one-off trips would generate enough ridership to warrant investing heavily into HSR, nor would it be the catalyst for growth in London.

There's commuting and there is short-distance business trips. Even if it were popular, it's not good economics to encourage people to live so far from their work. I have worked with people who lived in London and worked in downtown Toronto. Their arrival and departing timings at the office didn't seem much different than people who live in Hamilton or Bowmanville. But something is wrong if that's a popular tradeoff of time and money.

I do see better rail service as enabling one-day-or-less working trips between the two cities, assuming the first mile/last mile kinks are worked out. In that respect, London is not different than KW in terms of business folks heading to King+Bay (and vv), academics connecting between UWO, York, UofT etc, medical collaboration, etc. That already happens. A trip time better than driving will facilitate that. It doesn't have to be 73 minutes end to end.

I just don't think it's realistic that the new Ford gov will want to touch the HSR issue given the price tag.

Aye. They have agreed to do the EA. That will kick the thing out beyond the next election. Enough motion to defuse the idea, without spending any money.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

The schedule you're quoting Is the summer schedule, when classes aren't happening.

While I don't have a copy of the winter/Fall schedule, I can assure you that frequencies are much higher (I live here dammit )

I said that part of the issue is that iON is not running. With the LRT to come in a few months, you'll have a better ability to access the 30 from Waterloo.

To everyone else, I'm not saying full high speed rail is necessary (For 10 billion, it's not), but @steveintoronto was questioning the legitimacy of a business case for RER to Kitchener, I'm simply refuting that by giving information about the commute situation to Toronto and from Toronto.

Hey, I just got back from there, distance cycling, took the GO out. All you have to do to substantiate your wild claims is post a schedule.

but @steveintoronto was questioning the legitimacy of a business case for RER to Kitchener, I'm simply refuting that by giving information about the commute situation to Toronto and from Toronto.

RER was never touted to go to K/W! You're at the point of actually making things up. And what I stated was that based on the present off-peak loading of the 30 bus, and the Guelph 39 previously, is that *shorter trains* outside of peak would make a lot more sense, and terminating them where RER starts, running express to Union during peak. This service would still run at a loss, but (gist)"that's the cost of binding regions together". And it's AD2W. You're the one who claimed (and I quoted it prior, so it can't disappear) "I know everything about RER".

I've linked the map a few posts back. On the K/W corridor, RER is touted (in most cases) to terminate in the west at Bramalea.

And to bring Bampton back into the picture, (it's a very valid point, to compare, Guelph is only 130,000 people)
Disclaimer: This is not posted to quote as fact, just for discussion:

Regional express rail project could get Brampton's transit plans rolling
Ottawa announces $1.8B for GO regional express rail
NEWS Mar 31, 2017 by Peter Criscione Brampton Guardian

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Premier Kathleen Wynne announced $1.8 Billion from the New Building Canada Fund for Regional Express Rail (RER) in the Greater Golden Horseshoe, with part of that cash earmarked for two-way all day GO Rail service along the Toronto-Brampton-Waterloo corridor. - Metroland file photo

A massive injection of infrastructure funding announced by Ottawa and Queen’s Park Friday could get the wheels moving on a crucial piece of Brampton’s transit plans.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Premier Kathleen Wynne announced $1.8 billion from the New Building Canada Fund for regional express rail (RER) in the Greater Golden Horseshoe, with part of that cash earmarked for two-way all day GO rail service along the Toronto-Brampton-Waterloo corridor. The announcement was made Friday morning at a GO yard in South Etobicoke.

“We now have the funding critical to making two-way all day GO Rail service along the Toronto-Brampton-Waterloo Innovation Super Corridor a reality,” said Linda Jeffrey in a media release.

Under the Public Transit Infrastructure Fund, Ottawa will contribute more than $200 million for the 312 projects approved in Ontario, or half of the total eligible costs. It is not clear what the timelines are on the initiative, or how exactly plans to free up rail space on the corridor through Brampton will unfold.

GO plans to electrify trains on its busiest routes and implement all-day, two-way service at frequencies of every 15 minutes or better.

Expanding two-way, all day GO is a major piece to the city’s strategic vision of greater connectivity, and plays into Brampton’s grand plans to become a regional innovation hub.

According to the mayor, RER connects Brampton to 13,000 companies and the potential to create 40,000 new jobs.

“Today’s announcement is critical for our emerging innovation hub in Brampton, which sits right in the centre of the second largest innovation super corridor in North America,” said Jeffrey. “Improved regional connectivity is critical to Brampton’s ability to attract greater foreign and domestic investments to our city.”

Calling it the single largest transit project the federal government has ever invested‎ in, Trudeau talked of the need of expanded commuter services for rapidly growing communities like Brampton.

https://www.bramptonguardian.com/ne...t-could-get-brampton-s-transit-plans-rolling/

I'm grimacing reading that, as I do on any and all claims for the K/W Corridor, but it is fodder for discussion.

See:
https://seanmarshall.ca/2016/06/10/shortsighted-short-turns-at-bramalea-go/

 

[Streety McCarface]

Hey, I just got back from there, distance cycling, took the GO out. All you have to do to substantiate your wild claims is post a schedule.
RER was never touted to go to K/W! You're at the point of actually making things up. And what I stated was that based on the present off-peak loading of the 30 bus, and the Guelph 39 previously, is that *shorter trains* outside of peak would make a lot more sense, and terminating them where RER starts, running express to Union during peak. This service would still run at a loss, but (gist)"that's the cost of binding regions together". And it's AD2W. You're the one who claimed (and I quoted it prior, so it can't disappear) "I know everything about RER".

I've linked the map a few posts back. On the K/W corridor, RER is touted (in most cases) to terminate in the west at Bramalea.

And to bring Bampton back into the picture, (it's a very valid point, to compare, Guelph is only 130,000 people)
Disclaimer: This is not posted to quote as fact, just for discussion:

https://www.bramptonguardian.com/ne...t-could-get-brampton-s-transit-plans-rolling/

I'm grimacing reading that, as I do on any and all claims for the K/W Corridor, but it is fodder for discussion.

See:
https://seanmarshall.ca/2016/06/10/shortsighted-short-turns-at-bramalea-go/

I never touted RER to Kitchener as being legitimate, or even in the current Metrolinx plans. I was, however, trying to explain the legitimacy of potential RER from Kitchener to Toronto. Without a doubt, RER to Kitchener would be on the books if talks with CN were more progressive on the freight bypass issue.

Metrolinx has published reports stating: "We will continue negotiations with CN to reach a formal agreement to build a new corridor, which will enable us to deliver two-way all-day electric train service to Kitchener." This pretty much qualifies for RER under the GO transit definition, especially when Barrie falls under the RER umbrella.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/rer/20170407_KitchenerUpdate_EN.pdf Second last page

 

[steveintoronto]

I was, however, trying to explain the legitimacy of potential RER from Kitchener to Toronto. Without a doubt, RER to Kitchener would be on the books if talks with CN were more progressive on the freight bypass issue.

?

 

[Urban Sky]

VIA has already demonstrated on its Toronto-Ottawa run that if trains are time competitive, that ridership can grow. The Toronto-Ottawa line presently has up to 10 trains per day in each direction and ridership has been growing rapidly.

Hope you had a warm welcome here to the UT community!

I'm not too sure what you mean with "time competitive", but just to underline that this improvement was made in terms of frequency (blue line - departures per week) rather than of travel time (green line: fastest / red line: average):

Compiled from: official VIA Rail timetables (1976-2017)

Not sure how many people remember here, but until only 7 (!) years ago, there were only two afternoon trains linking the economic and the political capital of this country:

Compiled from: official VIA Rail timetables (2000-2017)

 

[crs1026]

Without a doubt, RER to Kitchener would be on the books if talks with CN were more progressive on the freight bypass issue.

Metrolinx has published reports stating: "We will continue negotiations with CN to reach a formal agreement to build a new corridor, which will enable us to deliver two-way all-day electric train service to Kitchener." This pretty much qualifies for RER under the GO transit definition, especially when Barrie falls under the RER umbrella.

The RER BCA documents clearly specified electrification to Kitchener, but was silent on the actual service level other than 30 minute peak direction service in peak periods. The 15 minute 2WAD portion was only ever recommended to Mount Pleasant at best, and cut back to Bramalea thanks to CN. Kitchener was originally only promised 30 minute peak service, with express service of some sort - likely skipping stops east of Bramalea.

RER is not just aimed at bringing people to Union. It is intended to be closer to a regional surface subway that builds ridership all along its length. I question whether there would be enough ridership beyond Georgetown to justify a 15 minute 2WAD stopping service, even if we had tracks and wires available. The 2WAD ridership will be focused on Kitchener, Guelph, Brampton, Malton, and Union. It might be preferable to skip some of the other stops outside of peak.

As the presentation you cited notes, it will be long after 2025 before the bypass is built and ML has free rights to the center portion of the line. Again, that's beyond RER. Maybe some day.

- Paul

 

[mdrejhon]

The VIA train frequencies between Ottawa and Toronto is now almost hourly AD2W.

It sure snuck up on us this last decade, but man, that is better than what Brampton gets with GO. Or Markham. Or Hamilton.

(Lest even Milton.)

 

[innsertnamehere]

I wasn't aware VIA that was frequent to Ottawa.. last time I took it was in, I believe, 2013 when there were 7 daily trains. they essentially have hourly service in the afternoons there!

 

[crs1026]

^Give Desjardins-Siciliano credit for the amazing frequency east of Toronto. Under his tenure, VIA has maximised equipment utilisation. Every piece of corridor equipment is kept moving. Nothing sits in the yards. That was not true under his predecessor.

And give CN some credit too, at least for recognising which side their bread is buttered on. Freight is given priority on the Kingston Sub, but there aren’t as many freight trains on the double track as CN runs out west on single track. I bet VIA is covering fixed costs that CN would have to eat (or liquidate) if VIA weren’t using this extra capacity. It’s win-win, even if VIA’s timing and timekeeping is constrained by freight conflicts. I still believe that $1B invested into the Kingston Sub would be attractive to CN and would enable a better revenue potential and operating performance envelope for VIA than $2B invested into the Havelock route.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

I still believe that $1B invested into the Kingston Sub would be attractive to CN and would enable a better revenue potential and operating performance envelope for VIA than $2B invested into the Havelock route.

Just a quick reminder of what happened the last time VIA followed your preferred strategy:

Source: 2016 OAG Special Examination Report

 

[Allandale25]

^ Maybe I'm missing something but why is there a discrepancy between the "revised scope of work" for 160 km of triple track and the "work carried out" indicating only 70 km were built? What happened to the difference? CN said no? VIA changed its mind?

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Based on the arguments presented here we should halt ALL go transit line extensions. Adding a station at the end of a line efeectively removes a seat from a downstream passenger. Making the outer station more appealing (board an empty train) than the inner station, ghettoizing it. Sounds silly? yup

 

[TOareaFan]

Based on the arguments presented here we should halt ALL go transit line extensions. Adding a station at the end of a line efeectively removes a seat from a downstream passenger. Making the outer station more appealing (board an empty train) than the inner station, ghettoizing it. Sounds silly? yup

You do see how that is completely different than what I was talking about when I used the Ghettoizing term.......this is not adding a new station to an existing line. It is adding a completely different service that, in the post I was responding to, has the "benefit" of making the municipality >40 miles from union easier to get to for businesses, residents, students, than the municipality ~20 miles from Union.

Yes, adding stops at the end of a line does remove available seats from people closer in....that can be resolved/addressed by adding more cars to trains or more trains on the service.....but that is not what we are talking about here and I stand by my comment that if this HSR is built it will have severe detrimental impacts on Brampton (and places like Georgetown to a lesser extent). Any hopes of attracting businesses is gone and relative home values will suffer....which will both impact tax revenue available to the municipality which will impact services.

What surprises me, honestly, is how many people (posters here and media types and politicians) will greatly espouse the positive impact that this will have on places like Guelph and KW....will talk about the value of connectivity in attracting good jobs and sustainable development.....but will go to great lengths to deny not being connected to it will have a negative impact.......only one can be true.