High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

[ssiguy2]

All the more reason to screw the whole idea and build the Brantford By-pass and bring in frequent high speed NON-STOP Union to London service.

 

[muller877]

All totally valid concerns. I challenge the emergency thing, though. Can you point to actual cases or statistics showing this is a problem in Oxford County? The 401 averages a crossing every 3 km's, some of those were built expressly to give emergency vehicles access. Again, this is why one should do proper consultation with stakeholders (such as local first responders). This is an issue that doesn't have to be one if proper planning is done. Re farm machinery, yes it's huge and creates a problem on roads today even where there are no railways. I'm not sure that one more railway changes that.
- Paul

Ambulance wait times for life threatening emergencies is targeted to be an average of 8 minutes with a maximum of 15 minutes (90% of the time). This is pretty standard around the world. So primary aide in 8 minutes.

If we just look at cardiac arrest patients (CTAS 1) Toronto has a goal of 8 minutes and they meet it 79% of the time. Oxford has the same goal and meets it 73% of the time. But of course that is heavily weighted to the cities and villages (which is where the ambulance stations are located).

When you look at the 90% level, the urban target for Oxford is 9 minutes and the non-urban drops to 20 minutes. Remember, for every minute without early CPR and defibrillation, the chances of survival decrease by 7 to 10 percent.

So any increase to this 20 minute wait is literally life and death.

 

[muller877]

Expropriation is a fact of life. Toronto politicians have really lost their courage over this one. Any expropriation hurts those involved, but articles in the Sun and Star showing a single sad-faced house owner are not grounds to spend an extra billion dollars, IMHO. Google "407 Expropriation" and you will see just how much farmland - or about-to-be-developed-farmland, anyways - was consumed in that exercise. Expropriation for a HxR ROW is a fraction of what a highway expansion would cause. Lack of political courage in Toronto should not prevent doing the right thing elsewhere.

The 407 was planned for over a decade and they tried to manage the impact working with locals. Here it is being forced by Queens Park without even have one word with the people that will be impact. ZERO DISCUSSION.

Working with residents you can co-develop a route that least impacts the locals. But that is not what is happening here. A straight red line on Google Maps is the only "master plan" that has created this issue.

And to be quite honest, the 407 is over sub-prime farmland. Most of the land north of Woodstock is what is called "Guelph Loam" and is some of the best farmland in the country. The local government has been quite successful in limiting growth (even winning at the OMB) to protect this farmland. They have a zero waste plan. Very progressive. So to object to this is from those who want to help secure the environment....but those who's voices are not being heard.

Queens Park/Toronto is forcing southwestern Ontario to bear the brunt of Toronto's NIMBY-ism. First by forcing windmills near rural houses where some people now cannot sleep (and rejecting the same windmills off the Scarborough Bluffs). Then the $1b boondoggle of Gas Plants which have been moved to the rural area. And of course the Toronto garbage issue (St Thomas and the planned dump right beside the Thames River in an old Lime Quarry in Oxford County).

They want the CN line expanded and used for HSR to London. Why have they not done a real analysis for this alternative? Simple. They wanted to get votes in both KW and London 3 years ago. Why do they not include a real analysis on this? Expand the ROW (even if you remove some people backyards in Mississauga) vs build a new one.

 

[innsertnamehere]

slow down a little. The EA hasn't even started, there is a ton of time for this to have consultations and determine the route. Much like the 407 extension, this will have a decade of discussion before shovels hit the ground. If it happens at all.

Oak Ridges Moraine, the location of the 407 extension, is very much prime farmland.

The plan is to expand the existing line through Brampton anyway. The line doesn't touch Mississauga.

The reason for the new alignment is due to the substandard nature of the existing lines, the curves are not wide enough to support the proposed speeds. I'm sure the final route will use the existing line whenever possible to minimize impact (and costs), but it isn't always possible.

 

[MisterF]

^Good point; there's a lot of prime farmland northeast of Toronto.

All the more reason to screw the whole idea and build the Brantford By-pass and bring in frequent high speed NON-STOP Union to London service.

The flaw in this line of reasoning has been explained to you so many times I can only conclude that you're trolling.

The 407 was planned for over a decade and they tried to manage the impact working with locals. Here it is being forced by Queens Park without even have one word with the people that will be impact. ZERO DISCUSSION.

Working with residents you can co-develop a route that least impacts the locals. But that is not what is happening here. A straight red line on Google Maps is the only "master plan" that has created this issue.

And to be quite honest, the 407 is over sub-prime farmland. Most of the land north of Woodstock is what is called "Guelph Loam" and is some of the best farmland in the country. The local government has been quite successful in limiting growth (even winning at the OMB) to protect this farmland. They have a zero waste plan. Very progressive. So to object to this is from those who want to help secure the environment....but those who's voices are not being heard.

Queens Park/Toronto is forcing southwestern Ontario to bear the brunt of Toronto's NIMBY-ism. First by forcing windmills near rural houses where some people now cannot sleep (and rejecting the same windmills off the Scarborough Bluffs). Then the $1b boondoggle of Gas Plants which have been moved to the rural area. And of course the Toronto garbage issue (St Thomas and the planned dump right beside the Thames River in an old Lime Quarry in Oxford County).

They want the CN line expanded and used for HSR to London. Why have they not done a real analysis for this alternative? Simple. They wanted to get votes in both KW and London 3 years ago. Why do they not include a real analysis on this? Expand the ROW (even if you remove some people backyards in Mississauga) vs build a new one.

Zero discussion? That's 100% false. The EA process includes public consultation, which often results in changes to a project.

The CN route wouldn't serve Pearson Airport and Kitchener/Waterloo. And linking Kitchener to Pearson and Toronto is the primary reason for this line, not an express train to London. This has been analyzed and most of the HSR proposals over the decades have proposed the route through Kitchener.

HSR connecting London and KW to Pearson and downtown Toronto would reduce the demand for driving, which would in turn reduce the need for road expansion. Roads take up a lot more room than a rail line. So it could very well be that farmland would be saved by this proposal. HSR lines have been built in high quality farmland all over the world; it's not an unsolvable problem.

Your points about garbage, wind turbines, and gas plants are red herrings and have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

 

[interchange42]

Hot off the press…

News Release

Ontario Moving Ahead on High Speed Rail with Planning Advisory Board
October 23, 2017

Historic Project Would Cut Travel Times by Half in Toronto-Windsor Corridor
Ontario is pushing forward with plans to bring high speed rail (HSR) to the Toronto-Windsor corridor by establishing an HSR Planning Advisory Board to provide strategic support on the landmark project. Canada's first high speed rail service will slash people's travel times, providing a faster, greener travel option that creates new opportunities for workers, businesses and anyone traveling in this part of the province.

Premier Kathleen Wynne announced this important step forward today in a speech to the Greater Kitchener-Waterloo Chamber of Commerce. In addition to providing strategic advice on major business issues associated with the project, the HSR Planning Advisory Board will engage with the private sector, stakeholders and Indigenous communities. The team members will bring a breadth and depth of expertise to the project, including in the high tech and innovation sectors; engineering, environmental sciences and transportation planning; and the financing and delivery of infrastructure projects. Members will include the best and brightest in these fields from across Ontario and Canada.

High speed trains between Toronto and Windsor would travel at up to 250 kilometres per hour on a combination of existing track and new dedicated rail corridors. This could cut travel times between these major centres from over four hours to just over two. By expanding Ontario's Innovation SuperCorridor to Windsor, high speed rail will support and enhance opportunities for economic growth in Southwestern Ontario and across the province. It will help businesses attract the best talent and boost their productivity, and help Ontario make the transition to a low-carbon innovation economy.

Investing in high speed rail is part of Ontario's plan to create fairness and opportunity during this period of rapid economic change. The plan includes a higher minimum wage and better working conditions, free tuition for hundreds of thousands of students, easier access to affordable child care, and free prescription drugs for everyone under 25 through the biggest expansion of medicare in a generation.


QUICK FACTS​

• • In order to ensure that HSR is effectively implemented, Ontario is establishing an HSR Planning Advisory Board. In his May report, Special Advisor David Collenette recommended a phased approach to delivering high speed rail in the corridor, and establishing the HSR Planning Advisory Board is part of the first phase towards delivering high speed rail.
  • Today, Ontario launched a website with details of what high speed rail will mean for people in Southwestern Ontario and across the province, and how people can provide feedback and input.
  • Ontario will continue to engage with private and public partners, including Indigenous communities and municipalities, while the environmental assessment, design work and ridership forecasting are completed.
  • The high speed rail line will serve a corridor that’s home to more than seven million people. The proposed stops are Windsor, Chatham, London, Kitchener-Waterloo, Guelph and Toronto Union Station, with a connection to Pearson International Airport.
  • The corridor was selected because it is a hub for leading startups, research institutions, and the manufacturing and agricultural sectors, and the region is growing faster than its current transportation network can accommodate.

Good luck to us all.

42

 

[steveintoronto]

Good luck to us all.

lol...that's the only take-away from that piece.

Oh look! Squirrel!

 

[Allandale25]

Hot off the press…

News Release

Ontario Moving Ahead on High Speed Rail with Planning Advisory Board
October 23, 2017

Historic Project Would Cut Travel Times by Half in Toronto-Windsor Corridor
Ontario is pushing forward with plans to bring high speed rail (HSR) to the Toronto-Windsor corridor by establishing an HSR Planning Advisory Board​

​

Does it say anywhere who is on the Board?

 

[crs1026]

This is not a bad development per se, but it's a statement of just how much of a toe-in-the-water strategy is being used to advance this proposal. At best, it's a forum where the considerable opposition in small town Southern Ontario can be beaten down or defused. At worst, it's a way of ragging the puck and backing away from HSR without actually saying so.

Highway expansion projects like the 401 don't have a preliminary step involving Advisory Panels. They just have a standard EA - procure - finance/design/build process. Infrastructure Ontario knows how to do that. Consultation happens within that process.

*Talking about* HSR really is the great Canadian pastime.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

It's interesting indeed to compare this projection to VIA's HFR according to Desjardins-Siciliano. There's a radical gulf between the justifications and costs of both. I think the Province had best address the Freight By-Pass before building train-castles in the sky. Or is that what this is all about? More obfuscation as to why that promise has fizzled?

This is bizarre for so many reasons. If Ontario (according to Wynne et al) was really serious about this, they'd offer to build an extension to Via's HFR that runs to London via the Northern Main Line, with a by-pass around the present CN owned stretch via Pearson, that could be used in the future as part of a discrete HSR. Meantime, it would get CN and CP off their arses in making a deal, if ever there's one to make.

The case for HSR at present just isn't there. The case for HFR is, so build the 'by-pass' with forward compatibility in mind so it can be used for either passenger or freight in different iterations.

 

[ssiguy2]

Interesting how it is now a project that will include Windsor as it should have from the start.

 

[Allandale25]

From Oliver Moore:

Idea: if you're going to issue a release saying you're establishing an advisory board, tell us who is on the board

 

[steveintoronto]

From Oliver Moore: Idea: if you're going to issue a release saying you're establishing an advisory board, tell us who is on the board

LOL!

Interesting how it is now a project that will include Windsor as it should have from the start.

It's put in as an optional extension now, and it was before.

There just isn't a fiscal case to make for that leg, just as there isn't even to London from Toronto at this time. There is a case for HFR...*if* the Province funds it, not whoever builds VIA's HFR (and I think it will be built, but not by VIA, albeit it will be leased and run by them.) I venture it will be built and equipped by CRRC or Hitachi, much more likely the former.And after buying BBD's Cdn rail assets from their Transportation Division, the European ones being sold off to Europeans.

Wynne had best be careful what she pines for, not that I put any weight into this anyway.

 

[Adjei]

So the station for Pearson will be at Malton Go?

 

[lead82]

Since Wynne and Liberals are going to lose the next election this plan isn’t going anywhere.