News   Jul 12, 2024
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High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

Politics is why things don't get built here. We have too many layers of government and for large projects we need 3 levels to align and there to be enough political will for the project to survive at least one if not two to three elections!

I am a huge fan of the TfL model. But admittedly, many in Toronto and the rest of the GTA might not like the idea. Transportation (and not just transit) is too criticial to be left to the whims of politicians. Not just for what projects get built. But for funding too. I'd love to see one entity for all aspects of transport and with funding authority.
 
Ontario NDP seems to be for the project now:
http://www.lfpress.com/2017/08/04/a...arify-partys-stance-on-high-speed-rail-friday

They really haven't had a clear stance. Could prove crucial if the next government is a minority.
Thanks for that link. At this point, I can't take anything anyone "commits to" as serious. I'm stuck between being cynical and jaundiced, not least because "High Speed Rail" is not a definitive term to start with. If they hedged their claims with "Higher Speed Rail"...I'd find it far more believable, and achievable.
 
Ontario NDP seems to be for the project now:
http://www.lfpress.com/2017/08/04/a...arify-partys-stance-on-high-speed-rail-friday

They really haven't had a clear stance. Could prove crucial if the next government is a minority.

Even if they end up as kingmakers, HSR will not be one of the issues they leverage. The NDP first and foremost care about social issues and funding going to social programs. They very rarely see transport as an important social issue on part with say social housing or health or education. So if transport is important at all, they'll push for transit over HSR. You'll see them push the DRL above this. Watch.
 
Even if they end up as kingmakers, HSR will not be one of the issues they leverage. The NDP first and foremost care about social issues and funding going to social programs. They very rarely see transport as an important social issue on part with say social housing or health or education. So if transport is important at all, they'll push for transit over HSR. You'll see them push the DRL above this. Watch.
NDP stance complicated by a leader from Hamilton (doesn't really benefit from HSR), a desire to bolster SW Ontario (which would benefit from an actually-built HSR), but also wary of appearing to spend too much in Southern Ontario when Northern Ontario (where they also have ambitions) already feels short changed in transportation spend.
 
the same story played out in California. Even though the project is going to be a huge benefit for the central valley -all the farms getting sliced in half by it have put up a huge stink. Unlike Ontario, rural farming operations in California have a huge political influence though - it has caused a ton of problems for that project.
 
I wonder where the comment about only three underpasses in Oxford County came from. Is that inside information or conjecture?

By my count using Google Maps, in Oxford County the 401 has 16 over/underpasses in 54 km's of route. The existing CN line has 42 crossings, about 27 being public roads and 15 being private farmers' crossings. I would certainly expect that public crossings would be as frequent as either of these lines is today. The number of private farmers' crossings is an interesting issue for the HSR planners - farm vehicles and fast trains don't mix.

The whole misinformation of the HSR being the most expensive option and least farmer friendly needs a reeeducation. Adding lanes to the 401 would be more expensive and devour more existing farmland. Putting the HSR on the CN line, and impeding CN operations, is also more expensive. Farmers don't need less cooperative freight railways charging more because their costs have risen. If we have to do something in this area, the HSR or a lesser HxR routing is the cheapest and most benign.

- Paul
 
Farmers in southwestern Ontario are not pleased about HSR. Article posted today here (updated link).

This is no different when the 400 series highway and the railways were built. If you look at old survey plans, the 401 cut right through farms. In some causes, the MTO offered a land swap for some farmers. As others have said, these rural areas are grossly uniformed.


That said, one of my favourite memories riding the TGV was watching the farms fly by.
 
One thing that struck me in the times I rode the TGV was - every laneway and farmer's trail, no matter how trivial, had 400 highway quality concrete blocks and guardrails to prevent motor vehicles from accidentally or deliberately reaching the tracks. Same with service entrances and laneways for the railway maintenance vehicles. It was simply impossible to drive onto the guage. The whole thing had been engineered meticulously with that in mind.

When I hear discussion of 'HxR light' proposals in Ontario which retain level crossings, including the VIA HFR scheme, I wonder if we are being effectively thrifty or are we just being myopic and reckless about grade crossings.
And yeah, it may be painful, but farmers figure these things out over time. The right balance of considering their interests but not declaring these a showstopper is warranted.

- Paul
 
This is no different when the 400 series highway and the railways were built. If you look at old survey plans, the 401 cut right through farms. In some causes, the MTO offered a land swap for some farmers. As others have said, these rural areas are grossly uniformed.

That said, one of my favourite memories riding the TGV was watching the farms fly by.

Its a shame that people will freak about the expropriation of a dozen houses in Toronto to build a new subway. Yet they will say its no problem to take land from a family who has owned and cared for it for 100+ years. The 401 and the Bloor subway used expropriation to save money. This is not the '50's anymore. Is Toronto willing to save money by expropriating property to build the DRL? If it is too good for Toronto why is it OK for rural areas?

You can't just "swap" land anymore or buy out the back 1/2 of a property. There are nutrient management plans in place and economies of scale within each field that make it either profitable or at a loss. If you take away the back part of a property then the farmer will be forced to reduce their livestock (nutrient management land requirements).

HSR will be 100% grade separated. How do you propose to get a farmers vehicle over a private access? They are huge vehicles often needing 2 whole lanes of traffic (or more) and taller than a transport truck. The only way to put them on a public road is to often take them apart. They need massive bridges and will only get larger over time.

Who will pay for the building and maintenance of both these private accesses? The local farmers or the county who does not benefit from this proposal (no stops there)? Will the province initially say they will and then scope the amount of access down? How about medical access even if 1/3 of the roads are closed? It already takes 15 min+ for the emergency vehicles to get to a location. Adding another 5 is literally a life and death issue for some.

All of these are valid concerns. And of course Wynne thinks that having rubber boots means she actually knows farmer issues....just like most who live in Toronto. So they will likely not be addressed.

And they are proposing adding tracks to the existing rail service. Why have they not continued to explore this? Is saving 2-5 minutes on the route really more important than these issues? We will never know because of a stupid red line on a map that a neophyte drew in the midst of an election.
 
HSR will be 100% grade separated. How do you propose to get a farmers vehicle over a private access? They are huge vehicles often needing 2 whole lanes of traffic (or more) and taller than a transport truck. The only way to put them on a public road is to often take them apart. They need massive bridges and will only get larger over time.

Who will pay for the building and maintenance of both these private accesses? The local farmers or the county who does not benefit from this proposal (no stops there)? Will the province initially say they will and then scope the amount of access down? How about medical access even if 1/3 of the roads are closed? It already takes 15 min+ for the emergency vehicles to get to a location. Adding another 5 is literally a life and death issue for some.

Take a look at how Renfe high speed rail through Spain manages to overcome this problem...or as mentioned above, TGV in France. It's not a problem that can't be overcome.
 
If a group of farmers oppose HSR, that means it's dead if the PC's are elected. Too bad for the rest of us.
 
If a group of farmers oppose HSR, that means it's dead if the PC's are elected. Too bad for the rest of us.
All three parties bow to farmers....there is a reason that QP shuts down for a day every year so the MPPs can all go ride tractors.....I have never cared enough to try and figure it out but the the farm lobby in this province is quite powerful and gets the attention of them all.
 
Its a shame that people will freak about the expropriation of a dozen houses in Toronto to build a new subway. Yet they will say its no problem to take land from a family who has owned and cared for it for 100+ years. The 401 and the Bloor subway used expropriation to save money. This is not the '50's anymore. Is Toronto willing to save money by expropriating property to build the DRL? If it is too good for Toronto why is it OK for rural areas?

Expropriation is a fact of life. Toronto politicians have really lost their courage over this one. Any expropriation hurts those involved, but articles in the Sun and Star showing a single sad-faced house owner are not grounds to spend an extra billion dollars, IMHO. Google "407 Expropriation" and you will see just how much farmland - or about-to-be-developed-farmland, anyways - was consumed in that exercise. Expropriation for a HxR ROW is a fraction of what a highway expansion would cause. Lack of political courage in Toronto should not prevent doing the right thing elsewhere.

You can't just "swap" land anymore or buy out the back 1/2 of a property. There are nutrient management plans in place and economies of scale within each field that make it either profitable or at a loss. If you take away the back part of a property then the farmer will be forced to reduce their livestock (nutrient management land requirements).

HSR will be 100% grade separated. How do you propose to get a farmers vehicle over a private access? They are huge vehicles often needing 2 whole lanes of traffic (or more) and taller than a transport truck. The only way to put them on a public road is to often take them apart. They need massive bridges and will only get larger over time.

Who will pay for the building and maintenance of both these private accesses? The local farmers or the county who does not benefit from this proposal (no stops there)? Will the province initially say they will and then scope the amount of access down? How about medical access even if 1/3 of the roads are closed? It already takes 15 min+ for the emergency vehicles to get to a location. Adding another 5 is literally a life and death issue for some.

All totally valid concerns. I challenge the emergency thing, though. Can you point to actual cases or statistics showing this is a problem in Oxford County? The 401 averages a crossing every 3 km's, some of those were built expressly to give emergency vehicles access. Again, this is why one should do proper consultation with stakeholders (such as local first responders). This is an issue that doesn't have to be one if proper planning is done. Re farm machinery, yes it's huge and creates a problem on roads today even where there are no railways. I'm not sure that one more railway changes that.

And they are proposing adding tracks to the existing rail service. Why have they not continued to explore this? Is saving 2-5 minutes on the route really more important than these issues? We will never know because of a stupid red line on a map that a neophyte drew in the midst of an election.

Well, it's more than that. The "Oxford Bypass" is very direct, and a very efficient way to couple London and beyond to a route through Kitchener. While it may sever farms, it totally skirts all smaller towns and doesn't create the impacts that the existing line through Baden, New Hamburg, or St Mary's would. It has a remarkable lack of river crossings or new intrusion into environmentally sensitive areas. Personally I wouldn't be disappointed if Ontario stuck with the Stratford route, but it is longer and would cost more to build..... that "spend money wisely" thing the farmers raised favours the new route.

All three parties bow to farmers....there is a reason that QP shuts down for a day every year so the MPPs can all go ride tractors.....I have never cared enough to try and figure it out but the the farm lobby in this province is quite powerful and gets the attention of them all.

Well, Ontario needs agriculture far more than we give it credit for. That doesn't mean that we should cow-tow to farmers when their concerns aren't fact based, however. A HxR line will consume far less farmland than a single new subdivision, and we are far too happy to keep building those. That reality is the biggest blunder, IMHO. Places to Grow only slows that loss of farmland, it doesn't halt it. If we were properly controlling the erosion of agriculture, a railway line would still be justifiable.

- Paul
 

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