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GTHA Transit Fare Integration

Right now you have a lot of 905ers coming into Toronto and using TTC and potentially being subsidized by Toronto taxpayers. Same story as DVP and Gardiner. This should be funded at the regional level.
 
That's why I believe we should toll the DVP and Gardiner. We need to make transit # 1 option to get to
reteequa said:
Is this method the plan set in stone or is it just an idea?
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Just an idea that will take another 5-6 years to "study" and "discuss" and have "conversations" about
 
kingkam said:
That's why I believe we should toll the DVP and Gardiner. We need to make transit # 1 option to get to

Just an idea that will take another 5-6 years to "study" and "discuss" and have "conversations" about
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First build the transit, get RER finished, then we can begin discussing tolling.
 
Absolutely no reason why tolling has to wait. People are paying to use those roads in congestion and lost time. Better to pay $$$, reduce traffic and use the revenue for infrastructure.

Fares can't be raised on the TTC without chasing people back into cars, so the same solution can't be used there (905ers using TTC without contributing to subsidy). It should be funded at the regional level. Better to have a sane transit funding model and bicker about who contributes how much instead of insane funding and fare model.
 
ARG1 said:
Its not confusing as much as it is a case of people see fare zones, and assume a specific implementation without reading the fine print, which is something that will cause issues to transit nerds who are far more familiar with these systems than the general public. The only part of the GTHA that in practice has a fare zone system is YRT, and even then I feel like most people who use YRT aren't aware of it, or know how it works, since the majority of the population live in one zone (Yes I know GO Transit's distance based fares are actually programmed as zone based fares but in the end it basically functions as a distance based fare system).
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YRT abolished fare zones a few years ago.
 
afransen said:
Absolutely no reason why tolling has to wait. People are paying to use those roads in congestion and lost time. Better to pay $$$, reduce traffic and use the revenue for infrastructure.

Fares can't be raised on the TTC without chasing people back into cars, so the same solution can't be used there (905ers using TTC without contributing to subsidy). It should be funded at the regional level. Better to have a sane transit funding model and bicker about who contributes how much instead of insane funding and fare model.
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The problem is the TTC and the Gardiner serve two completely different demographics. The Gardiner + DVP serve commuters coming from outside of the city, while the TTC serve commuters traveling within the city. Improvements to the TTC bus or streetcar network that would come from the tolled highways would help those commuting to the city, in fact your average commuter is unlikely to benefit from anything that would be paid for by the tolls. What commuters would benefit from is improved bus service in their respective regions, and the final implementation of GO RER, so that there is a competitive all day alternative to the DVP/Gardiner, however its unlikely that any tolling scheme set up by the city would go into these projects. It ends up being a very rough deal for those who depend on the DVP/Gardiner because you're basically saying "pay us so we can serve ourselves, and you can go f*** yourself." I said this once and I'll say it again, we can begin discussing tolling the urban freeways once an actually viable alternative exists that we can push people onto.

north-of-anything said:
YRT abolished fare zones a few years ago.
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Well there you go, I think that makes my point even stronger.
 
ARG1 said:
The problem is the TTC and the Gardiner serve two completely different demographics. The Gardiner + DVP serve commuters coming from outside of the city, while the TTC serve commuters traveling within the city. Improvements to the TTC bus or streetcar network that would come from the tolled highways would help those commuting to the city, in fact your average commuter is unlikely to benefit from anything that would be paid for by the tolls. What commuters would benefit from is improved bus service in their respective regions, and the final implementation of GO RER, so that there is a competitive all day alternative to the DVP/Gardiner, however its unlikely that any tolling scheme set up by the city would go into these projects. It ends up being a very rough deal for those who depend on the DVP/Gardiner because you're basically saying "pay us so we can serve ourselves, and you can go f*** yourself." I said this once and I'll say it again, we can begin discussing tolling the urban freeways once an actually viable alternative exists that we can push people onto.
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I don't really agree with this line of thinking. While yes they both serve very different demographics, it doesn't really discount the current fact that out-of-town Gardiner drivers are essentially getting a free service from the City of Toronto whilst not paying taxes to the city itself. Also tolls shouldn't be viewed as solely a money raising initiative by the government, it also acts as a sort of behavourial tax like taxes on tobacco. I view it more as, "you should only be driving into downtown if you ABSOLUTELY have no other choice." Along with that, people who do pay the tolls will still get some benefit in that travel times on the Gardiner and DVP would most likely decrease which doesn't seem like a bad deal (the highways could be treated as a sort of "premium" way of getting in and out of the city). Would also benefit GO/intercity buses coming in and out of the core which tacts on another benefit to out of town residents. We are also only talking about 7% of commuters who use the Gardiner to get into downtown (couldn't find the numbers for the DVP) so I'm not at all interested in really pandering to this group.
 
ViveleCanada said:
I don't really agree with this line of thinking. While yes they both serve very different demographics, it doesn't really discount the current fact that out-of-town Gardiner drivers are essentially getting a free service from the City of Toronto whilst not paying taxes to the city itself. Also tolls shouldn't be viewed as solely a money raising initiative by the government, it also acts as a sort of behavourial tax like taxes on tobacco. I view it more as, "you should only be driving into downtown if you ABSOLUTELY have no other choice." Along with that, people who do pay the tolls will still get some benefit in that travel times on the Gardiner and DVP would most likely decrease which doesn't seem like a bad deal (the highways could be treated as a sort of "premium" way of getting in and out of the city). Would also benefit GO/intercity buses coming in and out of the core which tacts on another benefit to out of town residents. We are also only talking about 7% of commuters who use the Gardiner to get into downtown (couldn't find the numbers for the DVP) so I'm not at all interested in really pandering to this group.
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They're not getting "free use" of the highways. Nobody uses DVP+Gardiner for through service, people take those highways to go to Toronto, which means they either work there, or are going to do shopping and other touristy stuff, thus contributing to the local economy, which benefits Toronto in a huge way.
 
I think time-based fares would be a mistake and could potentially really piss people off.

Time based fares would mean that someone along the subway/RER route pays less for their transit than someone who isn't even if it is the same distance in the same city. This also is a real disadvantage to lower income people because low income people tend not to reside near subway stations because the land values and rents near them tend to be much higher. It could result in a perverse situation where the poorer you are, the more you pay. Also time based systems only work in an ideal world. When the bus/streetcar/subway etc is delayed {ie due to road construction or weather}, rerouted, or breaks down, your trip obviously becomes much longer and to add insult to injury your fare increases because of it. Imagine your subway breaking down and once you FINALLY get to your destination, you realise your fare just doubled................not a good way to endear the population.
 
I think time would only be used to distinguish distinct trips.


The idea that all the stars need to align before we can even consider implementing tolls is madness. It's like saying all parking should be free until transit access is perfect, regardless of how much demand exceeds supply. Demand exceeds supply on the Toronto highways--they should be tolled. Same with the 400 series. But in the case of Gardiner/DVP, there is the additional reason that Toronto taxpayers are paying for infrastructure used by non-residents (according to ARG almost exclusively).
 
afransen said:
I think time would only be used to distinguish distinct trips.


The idea that all the stars need to align before we can even consider implementing tolls is madness. It's like saying all parking should be free until transit access is perfect, regardless of how much demand exceeds supply. Demand exceeds supply on the Toronto highways--they should be tolled. Same with the 400 series. But in the case of Gardiner/DVP, there is the additional reason that Toronto taxpayers are paying for infrastructure used by non-residents (according to ARG almost exclusively).
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Tolling Highways doesn't decrease demand, or increase supply, it just moves that demand elsewhere, and that elsewhere is scary. If we for instance toll just the Gardiner, that's going to be a ton more cars filling up Richmond Street and Lake Shore Blvd, and if we toll DVP, it'll move more traffic to Yonge St. or other minor streets, causing a ton more problems to local residents. People won't magically stop using their cars because there's a toll, and worst case scenario will find more disruptive ways to get around the tolls.
 
Are you saying no one makes the economic decision between using GO vs the Gardiner? Convenience vs cost trade-off? In the short run, people still want to go from the existing point A and point B. But in the medium term origins and destinations change.

You realize there is an abundance of data showing that tolls work. Same with congestion charges (which could also be put in place if you are worried about leakage to streets).

I'm going to stop here--I don't want to derail this thread from fare integration.
 
afransen said:
Are you saying no one makes the economic decision between using GO vs the Gardiner? Convenience vs cost trade-off?

You realize there is an abundance of data showing that tolls work. Same with congestion charges (which could also be put in place if you are worried about leakage to streets.
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Let me repeat, Tolls work IFF there is a viable alternative for people to use. In its current state, GO is not a viable alternative for anyone other than rush hour commuters. Even though many lines have hourly midday service, its not frequent or reliable enough for your average suburban family to use to get to downtown. Not to mention the lack of fare integration make using GO to reach anywhere other than downtown extremely unappealing. That's why I'm arguing to wait on tolls until GO Expansion or whatever gets finished, get something that can properly compete with Gardiner that we can use tolls to push people towards. Until then, putting tolls is the equivalent of playing the "stop hitting yourself" game.
 
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